the claims guys charges

[MYTHBUSTER]

Re: the claims guys charges

Hello All

I`m new on this site but not with the The Claim Guys.
In April I agreed with them for the same reason due they promissed will sort out on 6 Now in Octomer I`m still waiting for the money. The Claim Guys (TCG) are sending every me day letter with payment request, calling me on the most impossible time. I was thinking if I was stupid enough to ask to claim my PPI, I have to pay!...but...because they are asking for their 30%+VAT,I was asking them to provide me the Invoice, which will prove the valididty of their request, but the invoice never arrived. Isn`t that fraud? To ask for VAT whithout proper invoice???

[TUTTSI]

Re: the claims guys charges

Mythbuster

You are correct, to be able to charge VAT they must provide you with a bonafida invoice with their VAT number. I know there are some sites where you can check with that the number relates to the company that is charging VAT.

You should also raise your concerns to the Ministry of Justice, Claims Management Companies department about this.

Also, would you be interested in participating in a documentary which will be shown on TV over a 15 weeks period, the section which I am involved in is about Claims Management Companies.I believe the film crew would come to you and if you wanted to keep your identity a secret that would be acceptable. Let me know please ASAP.

Hello All

I`m new on this site but not with the The Claim Guys.
In April I agreed with them for the same reason due they promissed will sort out on 6 Now in Octomer I`m still waiting for the money. The Claim Guys (TCG) are sending every me day letter with payment request, calling me on the most impossible time. I was thinking if I was stupid enough to ask to claim my PPI, I have to pay!...but...because they are asking for their 30%+VAT,I was asking them to provide me the Invoice, which will prove the valididty of their request, but the invoice never arrived. Isn`t that fraud? To ask for VAT whithout proper invoice???

[WendyB]

Re: the claims guys charges

And just in case you think they may have just made up any old VAT number, there is a formula for checking it. It's called modulus 97. I can't do an example as I'm on my phone but if you Google it you'll get the idea.

[TUTTSI]

Re: the claims guys charges

Thanks Wendy, you learn something new everyday. having looked at it it seems very complicated. Perhaps when you have some time you could give us an example?

I googled it http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&sou...knNe3ziNdN3Wtw


United Kingdom and Isle of ManValue added tax registration numberVAT Reg NoGBCountry code GB followed by either:

• standard: 9 digits (block of 3, block of 4, block of 2 – e.g. GB999 9999 73)
• branch traders: 12 digits (as for 9 digits, followed by a block of 3 digits)
• government departments: the letters GD then 3 digits from 000 to 499 (e.g. GBGD001)
• health authorities: the letters HA then 3 digits from 500 to 999 (e.g. GBHA599)

For the 9-digit scheme, the 2-digit block containing the 8th and 9th digits is always in the range 00 to 96 and is derived from a weighted modulus-97 check number (an identical algorithm is used for the 12-digit scheme, ignoring the extra 3-digit block).[7] The current modulus-97 series is expected to run out during 2010, so a parallel series of numbers is being introduced from November 2009 for new registrations, restarting at 100 nnnn nn and following the same format but with the last two digits derived from an alternative algorithm known as "9755".[8] The algorithm is identical to the one for the established series except that 55 is subtracted to give the check number (modulus 97), so the check number is either 55 less than or (if this would be negative) 42 greater than the check number that a VAT number in the established series would have if it were identical in the first seven digits.[9] The details of the 97−55 check algorithm were to be secret[10] but are now available from HMRC on request.[11]
The GD and HA formats may also be formatted as GB888 8xxx yy for EU compatibility, where xxx is the 3-digit number from the short format and yy is the 2-digit modulus-97 check number.[12]
Isle of Man registrations share the 9- and 12-digit formats with the UK, with GB as the country code prefix, but are distinguished by having 00 as the first two digits.[13] Numbers with 01 to 09 in the first two digits are reserved by HM Revenue & Customs for UK non-VAT reference schemes.[9

And just in case you think they may have just made up any old VAT number, there is a formula for checking it. It's called modulus 97. I can't do an example as I'm on my phone but if you Google it you'll get the idea.

[Bill-K]

Re: the claims guys charges

How they derive VAT numbers is pretty complex, I agree, Tuttsi - but if it's any help, the maths of Mod 97 is quite simple. I think what Wendy was saying is that, if the VAT number is genuine, then applying Mod 97 to it will tally with the last 2 digits. It doesn't prove that the VAT number is genuine, as they might have just got lucky, but if it doesn't tally then it's a fictitious number.

Using Mod 97 to arrive at a 2-digit "Checksum" for any whole number/integer, we simply divide that number by 97, and throw away the answer - BUT we keep the remainder, and THAT's our checksum.

So, the Mod 97 checksum for 100 is 3. For 500 it is 15. For 999 it is 29. For any exact multiple of 97, it will be 0 of course.

There is an Excel function for this: MOD(Number,97), which will return the Mod 97remainder (or checksum) for whatever 'Number) is. If you open an Excel worksheet and enter this formula =MOD(A1,A2) into cell A3, then enter 97 into cell A2, this will give you the Mod 97 checksum for any number entered into cell A1. Changing cell A2 to any other number effectively gives you the "Mod XX" checksum for any modulus base.

Why 97 ? Why not 96, 66, 99 etc ? Well, that bit is beyond me, but if you enter 'PI' (3.14159265358979.....remember ?), then the Mod 97 checksum for this is..........3.14159265358979 !!!)

As Harry Worth - that comic from bygone days - used to say, "I...I don't know why - but there it is !!!"

HTH

[Turboman]

Re: the claims guys charges

OMG-----you been on the p.iss BillK---pmsl

Yes Yes I know----I've sworn you to not divuge secrets-----remember-lol

How they derive VAT numbers is pretty complex, I agree, Tuttsi - but if it's any help, the maths of Mod 97 is quite simple. I think what Wendy was saying is that, if the VAT number is genuine, then applying Mod 97 to it will tally with the last 2 digits. It doesn't prove that the VAT number is genuine, as they might have just got lucky, but if it doesn't tally then it's a fictitious number.

Using Mod 97 to arrive at a 2-digit "Checksum" for any whole number/integer, we simply divide that number by 97, and throw away the answer - BUT we keep the remainder, and THAT's our checksum.

So, the Mod 97 checksum for 100 is 3. For 500 it is 15. For 999 it is 29. For any exact multiple of 97, it will be 0 of course.

There is an Excel function for this: MOD(Number,97), which will return the Mod 97remainder (or checksum) for whatever 'Number) is. If you open an Excel worksheet and enter this formula =MOD(A1,A2) into cell A3, then enter 97 into cell A2, this will give you the Mod 97 checksum for any number entered into cell A1. Changing cell A2 to any other number effectively gives you the "Mod XX" checksum for any modulus base.

Why 97 ? Why not 96, 66, 99 etc ? Well, that bit is beyond me, but if you enter 'PI' (3.14159265358979.....remember ?), then the Mod 97 checksum for this is..........3.14159265358979 !!!)

As Harry Worth - that comic from bygone days - used to say, "I...I don't know why - but there it is !!!"

HTH

[TUTTSI]

Re: the claims guys charges

I am going to have a little practice when I have 5 mins - thanks for the fine explanation Bill very much appreciated.

How they derive VAT numbers is pretty complex, I agree, Tuttsi - but if it's any help, the maths of Mod 97 is quite simple. I think what Wendy was saying is that, if the VAT number is genuine, then applying Mod 97 to it will tally with the last 2 digits. It doesn't prove that the VAT number is genuine, as they might have just got lucky, but if it doesn't tally then it's a fictitious number.

Using Mod 97 to arrive at a 2-digit "Checksum" for any whole number/integer, we simply divide that number by 97, and throw away the answer - BUT we keep the remainder, and THAT's our checksum.

So, the Mod 97 checksum for 100 is 3. For 500 it is 15. For 999 it is 29. For any exact multiple of 97, it will be 0 of course.

There is an Excel function for this: MOD(Number,97), which will return the Mod 97remainder (or checksum) for whatever 'Number) is. If you open an Excel worksheet and enter this formula =MOD(A1,A2) into cell A3, then enter 97 into cell A2, this will give you the Mod 97 checksum for any number entered into cell A1. Changing cell A2 to any other number effectively gives you the "Mod XX" checksum for any modulus base.

Why 97 ? Why not 96, 66, 99 etc ? Well, that bit is beyond me, but if you enter 'PI' (3.14159265358979.....remember ?), then the Mod 97 checksum for this is..........3.14159265358979 !!!)

As Harry Worth - that comic from bygone days - used to say, "I...I don't know why - but there it is !!!"

HTH

[Bill-K]

Re: the claims guys charges

OMG-----you been on the p.iss BillK---pmsl

Yes Yes I know----I've sworn you to not divuge secrets-----remember-lol

Not I, sir. As ever, sober as a newt, I'll have you know !!!
This particular piece of data is no secret, so I offer no apology for it.
However, I need to apologise BEFORE some "CleverClogs" points it out to all and sundry.......and he will, the bugga !!!
The Mod 97 of PI is PI - but so is every other "Mod XX" of PI !!!!!
"I....I don't know why - but there it is !!!"

[WendyB]

Re: the claims guys charges

No, it's far easier than that, as I recall.

For example, take this VAT number 785 2181 12 and multiply as follows, using the first 7 digits of the number only. You need to list the numbers vertically, then multiply the first one by 8, the second by 7, and so on down to the seventh one by 2.

7 x 8 = 56
8 x 7 = 56
5 x 6 = 30
2 x 5 = 10
1 x 4 = 4
8 x 3 = 24
1 x 2 = 2
Total 182

then start subtracting 97 from the total. Eventually, you should arrive at a number which matches the last two digits of the VAT number. If you don't, then it's a dodgy VAT number

so therefore 182- 97 = 85. Then 85 - 97 = - 12. 12 being the last two digits of the VAT number I gave above.

Easier than a spreadsheet as you can do this anywhere, without a spreadsheet, all you need is a pen and the back of a fag packet...

[Bill-K]

Re: the claims guys charges

I wouldn't say it's easier than using a spreadsheet, Wendy, as I got the result right here, right now, in approx. 2 milliseconds, using the spreadsheet I just set up to check my response to Tuttsi.

BUT - I AM all in favour of being able to do stuff on a fag packet initially. Showing my age - but "the kids these days" just don't have that kind of backup, do they ? There is a big difference 'twixt USING such tools as Excel, and being completely - and mindlessly - RELIANT upon them. Point taken.

Glad that we concur - to some extent !!!

[WendyB]

Re: the claims guys charges

I probably didn't phrase that very well, did I

What I meant was, not everyone would have access to a spreadsheet, any time, any place. Or even if they did, they might not be a spreadsheet whizzkid and be able to set one up at the drop of a hat (like me, I'm a spreadsheet dumbo) They would, however, if they couldn't work stuff out in their heads, or add up the figures from the back of the fag packet, probably have a mobile phone about their person. Which would no doubt have a calculator on it. So they could work out the sums on the fag packet, using the calculator to do the sums. I did it with a pen and paper and my head, in about a minute. Not as quick as 2 milliseconds, but probably as quick overall, if you take into account the time it took to set up the spreadsheet, put the formula in etc.

And anyway, it's all academic, as if they didn't know the formula existed in the first place, they wouldn't use it, would they, spreadsheets, fag packets or otherwise, lol. It's just one of those odd things you sort of garner, over the years, isn't it..... Or remember from your previous incarnation as a VAT Inspector.... :grin:

[Bill-K]

Re: the claims guys charges

...previous incarnation as a VAT Inspector.... :grin:

That's it. I'm outta here. Here's the keys to my lockup - just take what Her Majesty requires to keep me out of clink !!!
But - sure - using a spready to crack this is like using a sledgehammer to......ouch !!!
Divide by 97 and keep the remainder, or work through Wendy's table - whichever is the most comfortable - I'm all for it !!!

[CleverClogs]

Re: the claims guys charges

Not I, sir. As ever, sober as a newt, I'll have you know !!!
This particular piece of data is no secret, so I offer no apology for it.
However, I need to apologise BEFORE some "CleverClogs" points it out to all and sundry.......and he will, the bugga !!!
The Mod 97 of PI is PI - but so is every other "Mod XX" of PI !!!!!
"I....I don't know why - but there it is !!!"

Wrong.

Mod n of PI = PI, but only for values of n > PI.

[TUTTSI]

Re: the claims guys charges

Thanks Wends that explanation is simples as I am sure Bill's was as well ( have not checked his out yet) but I can now see where you are going with this. Your laymans explanation will help most people work out if a VAT number is bonafide.

What if the scoundrels that make up a VAT number have made it work out to this example say?

or maybe using someone elses VAT number?

This still is not 100% concrete way of knowing for sure but it is a start and that is very helpful.

No, it's far easier than that, as I recall.

For example, take this VAT number 785 2181 12 and multiply as follows, using the first 7 digits of the number only. You need to list the numbers vertically, then multiply the first one by 8, the second by 7, and so on down to the seventh one by 2.

7 x 8 = 56
8 x 7 = 56
5 x 6 = 30
2 x 5 = 10
1 x 4 = 4
8 x 3 = 24
1 x 2 = 2
Total 182

then start subtracting 97 from the total. Eventually, you should arrive at a number which matches the last two digits of the VAT number. If you don't, then it's a dodgy VAT number

so therefore 182- 97 = 85. Then 85 - 97 = - 12. 12 being the last two digits of the VAT number I gave above.

Easier than a spreadsheet as you can do this anywhere, without a spreadsheet, all you need is a pen and the back of a fag packet...

[Bill-K]

Re: the claims guys charges

Wrong.

Mod n of PI = PI, but only for values of n > PI.

Hmmmm....curiouser and curiouser !!!

What if the scoundrels that make up a VAT number have made it work out to this example say?

or maybe using someone elses VAT number?

As I said, Tuttsi, it doesn't prove that a VAT number is genuine - it can only be used to prove that it is false.