Travel girl - Hardship claim - offer received

[scoobydoo]

Re: Travel girl - Hardship claim

Dont forget if you think you have done everything you can then someone may be able to help you with some publicity

[scoobydoo]

Re: Travel girl - Hardship claim

The letter from EXC in post 11 is good - you could send it wth a budget sheet from here

an you remind me did you have to take out a loan to repay the charges?

Are you still paying that back ?

[travelgirl]

Re: Travel girl - Hardship claim

Dear Miss ooopsss she means MRS

Thank you for your e-mail dated 10 April 2008.

As you are aware bank charges complaints are currently on hold pending the outcome of the High Court action. However, as you say the bank charges are causing you financial hardship, your case is one of those that will still be considered. As such, your complaint has been allocated to me, as an adjudicator, to progress. Please note the slight change in our reference number which should be quoted in all future correspondence.

We will be contacting the bank and asked for its comments regarding this. This will at first involve the bank finding out the full details of your financial circumstances and coming to an agreement with you for the repayment of any outstanding debt. It may involve the transfer of your account to its recoveries department (which appears to have already happened in your case), the transfer of any overdraft to a loan account, the cancellation of direct debits and standing orders or other similar action.

As the legality of the bank charges is now subject to a decision by Court, no further refunds of bank charges are being made. However in the case of financial difficulties we would be looking to the banks to take any possible action to stop future charges being made to the account. It does not necessarily follow that a refund of past charges will be made.

I will contact you again as soon as I receive a response from the bank. In the meantime, it would be helpful if you could let me know all the details of any debts you currently have outstanding directly with the bank i.e. loans, overdrafts, mortgages etc.

In addition, please let me know if any happens which may affect your complaint.

Yours sincerely


Sandra Greene
Adjudicator

Dear Sir/Madam

Thank you for your letter of 18 March 2008.
Please can you advise or update in the progress of the case please. Thank you
If you need more information should you require please can you let me know.

Thanking you for all your help.

Yours sincerely

[scoobydoo]

Re: Travel girl - Hardship claim

when is this dated?

this sounds ok

I think they are trying to help

[travelgirl]

Re: Travel girl - Hardship claim

Dear Sandra,
Thank you for your letter email 11 April 2008.
However when i first contacted f o s i explained everything also send bankcharges spread sheet, along with i think must have been 20 pages of correspondence altogether in which i did get acknowledgement letters as i faxed them all after a while i got them all sent back so presumably i thought that a copy of everything was put on file including the outcome of my court apperance, along with DJ Bryce order, for payment with interest, as DJ Bryce did contact abbey whom they told him they would appeal if he lifted the case as DJ bryce said abbey were to blame i dont know if it would be allowed to hear the tape of the hearing but DJ Bryce to the rep for abbey he disagreed and that abbey were at fault here.
Abbey closed my account in june 2007 without telling or writing to tell me i have proof of all the correspondence which includes 7 hard back folders of everything to date.
I would appreciate if you could let me know if anything was sent to you in the way of everything i have sent to fos.
i take it that a copy of everything was taken? and passed onto you.

I one of my letters from fos, i was advised that a Mr Nansen would contact me in up to 8 weeks guess what i am still waiting i have faxed him but nothing then i got 2 identical letters from a richard harris identical and taken no notice at all.

Please can you let me know as to what information you have and if any if you did get everything passed onto yourself.

I do not have a loan. overdraft nothing with abbey.
Thanking you for all your help in this matter

Yours
now look at this gggrrrrrr

Dear xxxxxxxxx

Thank you for your e-mail dated 11 April 2008.

I can confirm that we have retained copies of your bank charges spreadsheet along with details of your court hearing. I note that the Judge dismissed your application to have the 'stay' on your complaint about bank charges lifted.

In this respect, I should explain that as the legality of the bank charges is now subject to a decision by a High Court, no further refunds of bank charges are being made. As such, we have placed most of our complaints about charges ‘on hold’; that means that we will probably not progress them until the outcome of the court action is known.

We will, however, progress complaints which concern issues other than the validity of the bank charges. For example, the Banking Code requires that banks should treat customers in financial difficulty positively and sympathetically. So, where appropriate, we will consider whether this has happened and, if not, what more the bank ought to do in any particular case. Because you have said you are suffering from financial difficulties we have asked the bank to consider your own case, with regard to the Banking Code’s requirements.
Possible remedies might include one or more of the following:
–the transfer of an account to its recoveries department;
–the transfer of any overdraft to a loan account;
–the cancellation of direct debits and standing orders or other similar action;
–a full or partial refund of charges;
–writing off of some or all of the debt; and
–an agreement about future payments.

However, having considered your e-mail and complaint file carefully, it does appear that the bank is under any obligation to do any more than it has at this stage. I say this because you have said that you do not have any outstanding debt payable to the bank. So, it cannot, for example, agree to forego any debt or to accept reduced payments – as we might expect in some cases where the bank is owed money.

If you are having difficulty paying parties other than the bank, it is, I think, for you to approach those parties to see what they can do to assist. I do not think, though, that it would be right for us to uphold your complaint about bank charges solely because you are having trouble paying debts owed to other parties.

For this reason, I think that it is appropriate for your complaint to remain ‘on hold’ until the outcome of the court case is known. However, if you disagree, please contact us by 29 April 2008 to explain why you disagree and with any further evidence you would like to submit to support your position.

If you have not responded by this date I will assume that you are satisfied that your complaint about the charges applied to your account will remain on hold until the outcome of the High Court test case is known.

Yours sincerely

Sandra Greene
Adjudicator


i will post what happened at court when im done posting her letters and my replies to her

this one my reply i felt chuffed? hahahha
If you are having difficulty paying parties other than the bank, it is, I think, for you to approach those parties to see what they can do to assist. I do not think, though, that it would be right for us to uphold your complaint about bank charges solely because you are having trouble paying debts owed to other parties.

For this reason, I think that it is appropriate for your complaint to remain ‘on hold’ until the outcome of the court case is known. However, if you disagree, please contact us by 29 April 2008 to explain why you disagree and with any further evidence you would like to submit to support your position.

If you have not responded by this date I will assume that you are satisfied that your complaint about the charges applied to your account will remain on hold until the outcome of the High Court test case is known.

Yours sincerely

Sandra Greene
Adjudicator
Dear Sandra,
Thank you for your email dated 15 April 2008.
In reply to your Q/s stated in your email i shall answer them as honest as i can.





1. District Judge Law dismissed the stay on the grounds that when he phoned abbey to say he was going to lift the stay on this occasion but abbey replied if he did this they would appeal, due to the oft test case starting on the monday the 14th january 2008.

2. All complaints on hold.
I do understand this but having said this i am not sure as to why my case has been sent to the caseworker, for attention?
I was under the impression that if i didn't have a cause for my case to go higher then it would have remained in the hands of the fos dept and not transferred i should have thought?

3. This abbey has not done regarding my case as sympathetically etc, they have acknowledge just a buck standard letter that rolls off the computer since my letter from the fos regarding Mr Nansen i am still waiting to hear from him? is there such an employer/ee there?
the transfer of an account to its recoveries department; no

–the transfer of any overdraft to a loan account; no overdraft or loan
–the cancellation of direct debits and standing orders or other similar action; none
–a full or partial refund of charges;
–writing off of some or all of the debt; and
–an agreement about future payments. no.... none as i have nothing more to do with abbey
If you are having difficulty paying parties other than the bank, it is, I think, for you to approach those parties to see what they can do to assist. I do not have any debts that need sorting out this is the advice abbey gave after all this has nothing to do with abbey advsing me of what i can and cannot do if i was in DEBT as one may call it i would have gone to the correct advisers and not abbey. So this issue of debt has nothing to do with this case meaning abbey.....


I do not think, though, that it would be right for us to uphold your complaint about bank charges solely because you are having trouble paying debts owed to other parties. this is not true and am concerned by this comment when all i have been trying to do is compromise with abbey and it has been there lack of response on there part.

however i do disagree although i am sware about the results of the oft test case but i feel that mine is being fobbed off and issues about Debts to other parties etc no this is not the case
thanking you


.............

Dear xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thank you for your email dated 15 April 2008.

I will answer the points you have raised in the same format.

1. Whatever the reason, the Judge did dismiss your application to have the 'stay' on your complaint lifted. When a judgement has been issued by a Court of Law we do not have any power to override it.

2. Given the above and the pending court case on this issue of unfair bank charges we are placing all such complaints 'on hold' and will pursue them when the outcome of the court case is known. However, my understanding is that you are confused as to why, in these circumstances, your complaint was passed to me as an adjudicator (caseworker). In this regard, I should explain that, whilst the issue of unfair bank charges is 'on hold', we can still consider your claim of financial hardship.

3. In respect of financial hardship, a bank is obliged under the banking code, to consider a persons circumstances sympathetically and positively. However, this obligation only extends to any debts you have outstanding with the bank.

4. In your e-mail dated 11 April 2008 you say 'I do not have a loan, overdraft - nothing with abbey' . As you do not have any debts outstanding with the bank, the bank cannot apply any of the typical remedies I mentioned to you in my e-mail of 15 April 2008.

In light of this, and for the reasons explained in my previous e-mail, the bank is not obliged to do anything further at this stage in respect of your complaint.

Therefore, I think it is appropriate for your complaint to remain 'on hold' until the outcome of the court case is known.

However, if you disagree please contact us by 30 April 2008 with any further evidence you would like to submit to support your position.

If I do not hear from you by this date I will assume that you are satisfied that your complaint about charges will remain on hold until the outcome of the court case is known at which point we will contact you again.

Yours sincerely

Sandra Greene
Adjudicator

............................

[travelgirl]

Re: Travel girl - Hardship claim

well it will not let me put it in here so i am going to have to type it all

from copmplaints dept
i refer to your complaint about unauthorised overdraft charges. we believe that your complaint concerns the levels of fairness or lawfulness of the charges if it concerns something else such as admin error please let us know.

although we believe the charges are fair clear and lawful abbey along woth other banks and building soc 6 of them by the way
has become in voled in the legal procceedings with the oft in relation to unathorised overdraft charges which we believe will resolve the legal issues regarding the faierness and legalality of your unauthourised overdraft banking charges

it would be our normal approach to resolve your complaint through our interna; complaints process as quickly as poss ( mmmmeeeer dont think so when it takes them over a month to reply and acknowledge) thats a laugh
however untill the determination of the legal issues in the abvove procceedings we have asked the fsa to suspend the normal timetable for dealing with bank charges complaints and the fsa has agreed to thid request subject to the conditions that protect your rights

given this court case we have asked both the fos and the courts not to procceed with any other case they are hearing until the test case is resolved fos has indicated that as a general proposition it will indeed not to proceed with cases which rely on the legal issues being considered in the test case
similarly you should be aware that if you choose to issue a clain in the courts the bank will immediately apply to the court for an order to stay your action untill resolution fo the banks proceedings with the oft

we note that you have raised concerns regarding your finincial situation if you have any additional info to demonstrate you are suffering financial difficulties please send it to us in the encloseed prepaid envlope quopting the above ref no this will allow us to consider your currant situation
to avoid charges in the future please insure that there is enough money in your a/c to cover d/d s and other payments made you might like to consider cdontacting our telephone banking centre on xxxxxxxxxxxx to discuss your financial arrangements and if there is anything we can do to help
(thats another laugh they closed my a/c without me telling them and this letter is not answering anything really i have to let them have my details of the new ammount wich is less than it was orginally) i dont have an a/c with them since they closed it without my knowledge june 07

if yopu are experincing fianacial difficulty you might like to consider contacting debt counciling or organasations who provide free help what a cheek isnt it arnt they

consumer credit counciling service on tel no xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
CCCS - Free Debt Advice from the UK's Leading Debt Charity bloody cheeky ......
national debt help line no .......... National Debtline, for FREE CONFIDENTIAL and INDEPENDENT ADVICE call 0808 808 4000
alternativly contact cab

alternativly call our collecdtions and recoveries operations on ..............
who will be happy to talk through the options avalible to you ( i carnt belive this can you)
please note that if collections and recoveries become involed in the admin of your account it can have a detrimental affect on your credit bureau file

we are sorry that we havent been able to respond in full to your compplaint now (have they ever)
but we together with the fsa and the oft think that it is neccesary to resolve the key legal issues before we decide to respond to your complaint we can assure you that once the legal proccedings are completed we will resolve your complaint as quickly as poss and applying to test case principles if at that stage you do not agree (i dont)
with our conclusions you wil of coourse be able to refer your casde to the fos or to the courts
exactly what will happen next will depend on the courts we do not know how long the case will take we have promised to proceed as quickly as possible but inevitably given the importance of the issues being considered this may take many months
to finally resolve
we can assure uou we have registeered your complaint as of the date it was orginally received and have stored it please retain your bank records as this will make it easier for you to support your complaint on resolution of the test case
we will kee[ you updated appropraitley about the procceedings with the oft case you can check the ;atest position on our website at Abbey : Online banking, Mortgages, Savings, Current Accounts, Credit Cards, Personal Loans, Insurance & Inves
the fsa requires us to ensure that your complaint will not be adversely affected by the delay in dealing with it
customers for whom scotland is the most likely jurisdiction should be particularly aware of the following
1 you may choose to take your complaint against us to either the fos or the courts in scotland
2 your rights to refer your complaint to the fos will not be affected the fos provides a comvenient alternative to the courts and is free for consumers however as already explained you should ve aware that the fos has at our request deciced not to determine these complaints for the tome being untill the test case has been decided
3 however if you nonetheless wish to take your claim to the court in scotland you should be aware that the timinng of when you raise a claim against us may be imported as such you you may wish to seek independence advice on filing a claim now to protect your rights although you may have to pay a court fee, if you do this you should be aware thjat the bank will immediatly apply to the court to have your action on hold untill the resolution of the ganks legal procceedings with the oft
yours sincerly
richard harris
head of complaints

note not the person who fos said would be intouch with me

enc fos fact sheet
which is unorthrised overdrafts etc

so now i need to reply to this enclsing spreadsheet of the new charges which is less than the said amount
ty

[travelgirl]

Re: Travel girl - Hardship claim










































this is how it went, we arrived at the court about 30 minutes early booked in and sat down to wait, after about 15 minutes a very smartly dressed lady came over to us and introduced herself as Mrs. ? Newstead ( sorry I have forgotten her christian name )and said that she was representing Abbey. She then handed us three documents reffering to other case that had lost their stay applications. The first on the Human Rights argument, ( 1 case ) the second on the Overriding Objective argument ( 3 cases ) and the third Balance of Convenience/ In the Alternative ( 4 cases. (seems they all used CAG templates?) ). On these she would base he objections. At ten past two we were called to the Judges Chambers, all very informal where we introduced ourselves to the Judge, who bore a remarkable resemblance to Paul Daniels In fact I kept expecting him to sau " you are going to like this, not a lot, but you will like it" LOL ABG explained that it was her wish that I speak on her behalf and this was agreed, somewhat reluctantly by Abbey`s Council (she seemed miffed when Judge asker her if she was a barrister, so presumably the sent a fairly large gun ), any how I asked if judge minded if I read out skeleton argument as I really had not had great amount of time to prepare more arguments. He decided that they would be quicker reading it for themselves , he got through his fairly quickly, but Ms Abbey Rep was slower and making copious notes, He then asked me if I had any further to add I replied that I felt it prob. for best that if there were any questions I would endevour to answer these he agreed and queyed one or two minor points and asked Abbey if she had any and she replied this is all new and was unprepared. judge then asked me if I had any other reason why stay should be lifted in view of test case startin on monday and expected to be settled in 8 days , the way he asked the question that the only answer I could give was no without making a fool of my self. he then went into general conversation abot test case, how some arguments had already been ruled on in many cases and he would not go counter to these rulings he then cross examined Abbey re taking charges from benefits saying there was no guidance for him on this issue, abbey jumped in here and produced book of relevant legislation and quoted sections we had used ( note Steven) and stated "in my opinion these sections refer to loan sharks, unscupulious hp companies and other undesirables having access to clients funds , like pension book scam that used to go on" and banks remarked the judge to wich she made no reply. Judge then said he would not rule on this issue as case must be decided in high court by someone taking back to court specificaly to stop them taking these charges and nat as part of a claim. (was this some advice I am wondering) he then informed us that he would not lift the stay for several reason but mainly the close date of test case, and that he had been incontact with Abbey in regard to this and other cases and they had said they would appeal decision pending out come of test case so really there was no point in lifting stay other than to waste everyones time. so there we go we did not win but do not feel that we lost either, and went away both of us with the impression that had the test case not been so near then we would have won He was very symathetic to us, and at times short with Abbey rep. Oh and before I forget after he gave his ruling I asked about altering ABGs claim to which he agreed and stated that he would record this in his ruling, Abbey were not keen, saying that we could ask at later date to amend claim but he insisted no I will enter it in ruling and then ABG can just send amendment to the court to be attached to claim. I asked if another N244 application would be required and again he said no, just send polite letter to court.

So we didn`t get stay set aside, But I don`t think anyone will now with test case just around corner






What I think the DJ was telling us is that he is in agreement with our view on what this sections mean, but that someone has to take the banks to court for taking charges from their account on this count only and not as a part of a small claim to get charges refunded. That way a definative ruling can be made clarifying this grey area. Abbey rep was NOT impressed with a lot of his observations on this subject.the dj turned to abbey rep and said i blame abbey for this situation etc she wasnt happy and kept getting her boo of rules out hahahahaha

[scoobydoo]

Re: Travel girl - Hardship claim

Right yours is a difficult case

when the charges pt you into OD how did you get rid of the overdraft? a loan - are you stil paying that?

Abbey closed your accont without your permission yes?

So they are saying if you had kept the OD they would have considered your case but because you got yourself straight they will not help?

Ridiculous

Where did your benefits go in the time when you did not now they had closed your account?

[travelgirl]

Re: Travel girl - Hardship claim

to answer ur Q's
hubby was made retired under ill health
pp paid for a year then said they have no more payments to be made so what do we take out pp for?

the account was in my name only

hugs
tvgl
xx

[scoobydoo]

Re: Travel girl - Hardship claim

I think we really need to understand how you repaid the OD that the charges caused?

[travelgirl]

Re: Travel girl - Hardship claim

yes they closed my account with me not knowing
i have sent them more than once
no i didnt take out the loan to pay of the charges but to help me with food elec gas etc
they took the charges from my fortnight benefit SDA
and mobility SDA as well
will see if i still have the post with this on i will also put in my spreadsheet etc
hugs
tvgl

[scoobydoo]

Re: Travel girl - Hardship claim

also remember thisThe Ombudsman has just adudicated in a complaint against the A&L on a complaint that they closed a customer account in response to a claim for bank charges.

The FOS decided that the closure was indeed unfair as it was punitve and retaliatory.
The awarded £125 against the bank.

this is a derisory figure of course but the ruling is highly significant.

If you have had your accont closed by any bank because you have cliamed bank charges - or if you have been threatened with account closure then we suggest that you begin an immeiate complaint to the Ombudsman.

[travelgirl]

Re: Travel girl - Hardship claim

forgot to say that the DJ told us at the hearing and abbey rep he did personally phone abbey for a lift of the stay on this one etc
abbey replied to district judge bryce that they would appeal for the lifting of the stay due to the oft test case starting 14th jan

[travelgirl]

Re: Travel girl - Hardship claim

they know all this and that they had closed my account without me knowing i even sent them a copy of the abbey letter telling me that they closed my a/c on june 26 think it was and they only did this cause i kept on at them asking

[scoobydoo]

Re: Travel girl - Hardship claim

So every time you went into OD when your benefits went in they took those funds to repay the OD which left you with no money and you had to borrow to have money to live on?

Do you still have that loan running now?


I will find out if there are any experts on the banks taking your benefits money?


My initial idea is a letter along the lines of:


I refer to your letter dated XXX and am very disappointed with your response.

I would repeat the following

I did not close my account number xxxx

It was closed without my authority andwithout notice.

the facts are that when I did go into OD because I was suffering finacial difficulties Abbey then used my only incomewhich was benefits to repay theOD and charges which at time left me with no money to live on at all. I had to take out a loan for food and everyday expenses as a direct action as to what Abbey were dong.

Now it appears that because I am living within my means at the moment I am being punished - yet if I had still a large OD with Abbey or still had an account ( which I repeat I did not close ) you would consider my case.

I would point out that the judge was sympathetic with my argument about the bank taking my benefits money in the way they did.

Even recently they just keep churning out standard letters abot operating an account that I dont even have. they have never tried to help me or act in a sympathetic way.

So to summarise I am not happy with your decision and will have to consider my next move. Whch may be to publisise my case.


Open to suggestions everybody?

you may need to edit your surname out of some of the posts