Court Hearing Lost - appeal options and costs?

[Bigmac799]

Hi,

Long term lurker, finally get to write a thread.

In brief, after a protracted battle with Arrow Global/Restons, I had a CCJ given against me.
In short, I don't feel I got a fair rub of the green from the Judge - however, in hindsight, especially for the amount of the judgment against me, I should have sought a solicitor but alas I did not.

As I appeared at the hearing, I believe my only option to get it "overturned" would be as successful appeal - however, I understand I only have 21 days from the date of the hearing to get this done. I have now spoken briefly to a solicitor and he advised the need to get a court transcript, as well as apply for an extension to appeal (as 21 days will not be sufficient time to prepare a possible appeal request).

My questions at the moment are:

I understand there are costs involved. I'm "confused/concerned" about these costs - I probably wouldn't qualify for any rebate as I do not have a low income, albeit I am drowned in debt, including this CCJ.

The case was through Fast Track and I understand the appeal fee is £140.
I also understand the "request to extend my time to appeal" is another form costing £255.

Are these two fees separate - i.e. does paying £255 not give me a time extension and pay the appeal fee?

also, I'm acutely aware that my chance of actually getting an appeal off the ground are slim - do you guys have much evidence of whether there is a great chance of success going down this route? (i.e. what's the success rate of people on this forum)

Thanks
BM

[Kafka]

Re: Court Hearing Lost - appeal options and costs?

On what grounds would you consider that the judgment can be appealed?
All cases are individual and its difficult to comment with no background.

[Amethyst]

Re: Court Hearing Lost - appeal options and costs?

The £255 is the application fee and is separate to the filing fee for the appeal. You will also have a fee to pay for the transcripts which may be a further £100 ( you'll need to get a quote for that asap) It's tough to have any idea of chances really without the transcript or st least some detail of what the claim was, your defence and the arguments used in court and what issues the case turned on ? Presumably it's consumer credit .... Arrow global or arrow global Guernsey ? Fast track ?(over £10k?)

[Bigmac799]

Re: Court Hearing Lost - appeal options and costs?

Thanks for the responses. I didn't really want to go into too much detail - as I've already been down that road for the last 18 months.
Here's a quick summary:

I believe the company involved is Arrow Global (and not the Guernsey group).
The initial court claim related to an Egg Loan agreement signed in 2003.
Getting the paperwork out of Arrow/Restons proved very difficult.
Eventually they did provide a signed copy of the Credit Agreement - but there was no sign of the associated T&C - some of which had been referred to in the credit agreement - so I chased these as well.
In March of this year, they tried to get a Summary Judgment against me claiming my defence had no chance of being successful. This was dismissed by the Judge and the hearing was adjourned to July to allow both parties to negotiate and for them to provide the T&C connected with the agreement.
4 days before the hearing in July, I received a letter from them which contained a "reconstituted terms & conditions" - this was the main point I argued on - because I had a pre-2007 agreement, I argued at the case (I didn't really have time to argue in advance!) that reconstituted T&C were insufficient to allow enforcement of the agreement (as per s127, para (3) and (4) of the CCA) - the Judge stated in the hearing that this was not applicable as the Claimant was not seeking to enforce the agreement - only applying for Judgment against me.
Their lawyer at the case referred the judge to the recent case (whose reference escapes me - it was xxx vs HSBC) which seemed to set the future route for whether true T&C had to be produced - I argued that that did not apply to pre-2007 credit agreements - The Judge asked me "where does it state that" - I couldn't answer - so Judgment was made against me.


To be honest, I did not produce a "strong" defence - but the "lack of proof" from Arrow/Restons was also quite shocking - they produced "screenshots" to show my last payment and the balance on my account - I could produce a screenshot to show full repayment!! Why is their screenshot any more believable than mine?

[Amethyst]

Re: Court Hearing Lost - appeal options and costs?

Carey v HSBC 2009 ?

In my very simplistic understanding that basically says a recon is okay unless the debtor argues they werent given the terms at the time of signing the agreement ( so lack of prescribed terms) - then they'd have to evidence that they were present at the time of signing, or the agreement could be ruled iredeemably enforceable pursuant to 127(3) ( which is where pre 2007 comes in as 127 was revoked in 2007 ). [MENTION=7765]Joanna C[/MENTION]; was one of the solicitors involved in that case so she'll be able to give a much better breakdown of what it actually means

I could produce a screenshot to show full repayment!!

was your argument that you had repaid in full ?

[Bigmac799]

Re: Court Hearing Lost - appeal options and costs?

No, I didn't argue I had paid it in full. My defence was pretty much "prove it" to the Claimant.
My comment about screenshots was just my feelings about what the Judge obviously accepted as proving that I had signed the agreement, I had been provided with a copy of the agreement by the Claimant, and a copy of reconstituted T&C - and clear evidence that the debt was still outstanding (a screenshot from their system which shows it? Really?) - therefore judgment was made against me.

I completely understand (well have been informed by a solicitor in a phone call) that I cannot just appeal because I don't like the decision - I need to show that a clear error in application of law was made in reaching the decision.

I'm not entirely comfortable I can show this - as I don't have a full thorough legal understanding of the need for the claimant to produce all of the applicable paperwork and whether s127 applies, especially because my agreement was pre-2007.

My initial question was really related to cases in this field (i.e. legal debt disputes) - whether evidence shows there has been misinterpretation of case law by "district judges" which have successfully been overturned on appeal or whether in the main decisions are sound (even if the defendant might feel aggrieved - like I do). Sorry - I know it's a bit of a "how long is a piece of string" question.

On another point:

If I accept I cannot appeal (due to having no case!) - the next question relates to the payment of the CCJ. The judgment was made for payment to be made forthwith. No questions were asked at the hearing as to whether I could afford to do this - and the answer is I cannot even get close to affording to pay it.
I know I can fill in another form (N245) costing another £50 to ask the court to reconsider an offer of instalments - or equally I can approach Restons to try to agree an amicable agreement for such a resolution.

Finding £50 to go through the court is also proving a challenge - I'm probably in a state of mind where I am finding the whole court fee structure a bit tiresome. And my judgment also contains a significant amount to pay Restons' fees for the hearings.

I've been advised that Restons do (or could) play hardball - and go for something like AOE or Bailiff enforcement (that would also be a waste of time and money as I have no assets to seize) - but generally, how amenable is it to agree an amicable solution in these circumstances?

Cheers. Most helpful so far.

[Amethyst]

Re: Court Hearing Lost - appeal options and costs?

approach Restons to try to agree an amicable agreement for such a resolution

I would try that first of all. If you put together your income and expenditure and work out what you can offer long term - if you can get agreement without applying to vary the order through court its normally better, and sometimes keeps it from appearing on the register of judgments.

Regarding enforcement if you don't own your home and have no assets to speak of, then they could look at AoE, but if you can do installments that shouldn't happen. The could look at Bankruptcy, but again with no assets it'd be a bit pointless. ( Presuming that no assets includes you don't own your home ?)

Don't forget their dodgy screenshot is backed up by their witness statement, and if you hadn't pleaded there was no debt or made any positive assertions that you did not have the terms when you signed the agreement, then the court can't just make those pleadings up for you. They had the original agreement copy, just recon terms ( alleged to have been on the reverse or provided with the agreement at the time of signing presumably ). So on balance of probabilities to the judge, without argument to the contrary, they were compliant at the time - Did you look at assignment and default etc ? or just go on the s.78 compliance? An appeal is only an option if there was an error in law, which is why you'd need to transcript to show what/if there was. It doesn't sound like there was so far from what you have said. Not sure who you spoke to but for anyone to assess really you'd need to show them all the documents and the transcript, and you'd need a specialist consumer credit solicitor as it can be quite complicated ( well, as you can see).

How much, if you don't mind me asking, was the judgment for?

[MENTION=7765]Joanna C[/MENTION]; [MENTION=551]pt2537[/MENTION]; [MENTION=87380]Diana M[/MENTION]; re the Carey stuff etc ( and everything else obvs - just check I'm not way out on Carey )

[Bigmac799]

Re: Court Hearing Lost - appeal options and costs?

Regarding enforcement if you don't own your home and have no assets to speak of, then they could look at AoE, but if you can do installments that shouldn't happen. The could look at Bankruptcy, but again with no assets it'd be a bit pointless. ( Presuming that no assets includes you don't own your home ?)

No I do not own my own home (only real asset is my car - which is worth less than £500)

Not sure who you spoke to but for anyone to assess really you'd need to show them all the documents and the transcript, and you'd need a specialist consumer credit solicitor as it can be quite complicated ( well, as you can see).

I agree - I admit the advice I have had was only based on the hypothetical aspect of my case - I was informed I'd need the transcript - however, ultimately the costs of even thinking about an appeal (£255 + £140 + £100 (transcript) + £600 (Solicitor time to read over the papers) push me into a position where I feel unable to really contemplate moving in that direction.

How much, if you don't mind me asking, was the judgment for?

Around £11k + £2.5k in their costs.

@Joanna C; @pt2537; @Diana M; re the Carey stuff etc ( and everything else obvs - just check I'm not way out on Carey )

I'm most grateful for your help - you're pretty much stating everything I "feared"; I am starting to feel like Bankruptcy might be the easiest route - but again there's a charge for that! - although I would lose my job if I became bankrupt - meaning a rather pointless exercise (especially if Restons were to think that way).
Any offer of monthly payment will result in taking more than 10 years to repay - meaning I feel it's unlikely to be acceptable to Restons - this is also the reason for thinking about the BR option (although I am certainly not taking that option lightly).

[Amethyst]

Re: Court Hearing Lost - appeal options and costs?

I think you could get a better deal than £600 to read over papers, but indeed the court costs are very restrictive. As is the norm in this country you get punished for doing a little bit better for yourself and end up wondering why you bother.

I've tagged a few people so hopefully they'll pop in and give you some thoughts too.

Do you have other debts btw ? [MENTION=48934]Debt Camel[/MENTION]; might have some thoughts on bankruptcy etc options, although not really an option if your job relies on it - is your job at risk from having the CCJ ?

[Debt Camel]

Re: Court Hearing Lost - appeal options and costs?

I am drowned in debt, including this CCJ.

Could you be more precise? How much is this CCJ for? How large are your other debts? Are you making payments to them, if so how much?

I would lose my job if I became bankrupt

are you sure? a lot more people think this would happen than is actually the case, what is your job?

[Bigmac799]

Re: Court Hearing Lost - appeal options and costs?

Value of this CCJ is in #8.
My job is in the accountancy field.
My total debts are in excess of 40K. I am only making small repayments on a small portion of them

[warwick65]

Re: Court Hearing Lost - appeal options and costs?

Hi

just a question, would bankruptcy cause you problems with your job - maybe that is what debt camel was trying to establish
[MENTION=87380]Diana M[/MENTION]

[Bigmac799]

Re: Court Hearing Lost - appeal options and costs?

Cannot be a member of accountancy body as BR. Not being a member limits my job options significantly

[Debt Camel]

Re: Court Hearing Lost - appeal options and costs?

Having 40k in debts and not being able to repay them limits your life significantly... can you keep your current job?

[Bigmac799]

Re: Court Hearing Lost - appeal options and costs?

At present, repaying thus ccj is my first priority, or reaching an agreement to repay by instalments, without AOE or bailiff enforcement. I understand that Restons are unlikely to lie down and accept so I need to inform myself of the most appropriate course of action, taking into account other circumstances such as my job