CPR request returned to sender

[Helpplease2017]

Good morning everyone

I have followed the advice given to others on the various threads here in relation to a county court claim for an old credit card.

The claimant is Arrow Global and I sent off the CPR 31.14 to the address given on the claim form by registered post.

It has now been returned to sender according and I was wondering where that leaves me as I need to put my defence in in the next few days?!?

I've got proof of postage and the address is per the court papers on there. I've just looked online and I cannot find Arrow listed at that address.

Does this give me any leverage at all?

Surely the court papers must list their correct address?!?

Any help gratefully received.

Thanks

[warwick65]

Re: CPR request returned to sender

Hi

Who did you send the cpr request to and at what address?

Recently there have been confusion because a solicitor has been putting an incorrect address for the claimant however CPR requests go to the solicitor

Did you mean your CCA request?

If it is the CCA to AG I would resent to AG at 12 Booth St Manchester which is their registered office now and has been for nearly a year
[MENTION=87380]Diana M[/MENTION] [MENTION=6]Amethyst[/MENTION]

yeah or Nay ?

[Helpplease2017]

Re: CPR request returned to sender

Thanks Warwick.

Yes I did mean CCA.

I don't have time now as my defence needs to be in by Friday.

Surely I don't suffer as a result of their mistake?

If they give an address on court papers then surely I'm not expected to check this?

[warwick65]

Re: CPR request returned to sender

Ok

There are differing views on this and yes you are right in what you say but personally I wonder just how sympathetic a judge will be

How much is the claim for?

Regardless of when your defence is due in I personally would send another one to AG at the Manchester address

However in my defence I would enter two lines
1) On xxxxxx A request under S77-79 CCA was sent to the creditor at the address listed on the claim form this was returned
2) On xxxxxx A further request under S77-79 CCA was sent to the Creditor at their registered address , to date this is outstanding
3) By virtue of S77(4) S78(6) CCA 1974 the account is unenforceable


I am still open to other opinions as I am not sure just how this sort of thing would be handled by a lawyer, although a lawyer might well handle it differently to a LiP
[MENTION=6]Amethyst[/MENTION] [MENTION=551]pt2537[/MENTION] [MENTION=87380]Diana M[/MENTION] [MENTION=7765]Joanna C[/MENTION]

[Helpplease2017]

Re: CPR request returned to sender

I'll send it tomorrow Warwick - thanks

Can you explain what you mean by point 3 though. I'm not clear?

Also interested in a lawyers views on this if anyone is able to help further?

[warwick65]

Re: CPR request returned to sender

With a CCA request S77 is for loans and S78 is for things like credit cards and catalogue accounts

the consumer credit act says that when you send a request under S77(1) or S78(1) if they do not provide the necessary documents the debt is unenforceable until they do. They have 12 days from receipt ( so 14 working days really) to reply but if they don't it just becomes unenforceable until they do - does that make sense?

The bit of the Consumer Credit Act that says it is unenforceable is
S77(4) and S78(6) say
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1974/39/section/77

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1974/39/section/78

If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a)

he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

[Helpplease2017]

Re: CPR request returned to sender

Thanks Warwick.

That's a great help.

Just reading the thread again you asked how much the debt was for.

Why would that matter in relation to an incorrect address?

The debt is over £11000

[warwick65]

Re: CPR request returned to sender

No but it changes the whole game regarding costs etc.
A debt over £10000 is likely to be fast track with costs paid by the loser.

https://justbeagle.com/

I would suggest looking at a lawyer who may work on a no win no fee or CFA.

Compare different quotes
[MENTION=87380]Diana M[/MENTION] [MENTION=7765]Joanna C[/MENTION] [MENTION=551]pt2537[/MENTION]

[Kati]

Re: CPR request returned to sender

I'll re-tag [MENTION=6]Amethyst[/MENTION] [MENTION=551]pt2537[/MENTION] [MENTION=87380]Diana M[/MENTION] [MENTION=7765]Joanna C[/MENTION] (just in case they missed yours' Warwick ) xx

[Helpplease2017]

Re: CPR request returned to sender

Just thinking more on this and wondering if I should call the solicitor to make them aware of their error as their pack has been successfully delivered but they will probably not realise the request to AG has been returned?

Or is noting it on my defence today enough?

[warwick65]

Re: CPR request returned to sender

I wouldn't tell the solicitor. Make it as difficult as possible for them.

[Amethyst]

Re: CPR request returned to sender

Morning

I think realistically we should give the solicitors a call and ask them for the correct address for the claimant and inform them you believe they have made an error in their claim which requires correcting. Ask them to agree an extension to your defence date pursuant to CPR 15.5 for 28 days due to their error, and to confirm their agreement in writing so you may inform the court. And ask them for the correct address as you need to write to the Claimant as the alleged creditor. Of course if they are narky and refuse, or try discuss the case other than the address issue, inform them you will be filing your defence today and will ask the court that they award you the costs of any future amendment required due to the error of the claimant and their solicitors.

Keeping quiet seems tactically like a good idea as all court docs would go to the wrong address and the claim may well end up being stayed, but it is likely to get resolved at some point once the solicitors realise what they have done, and an amendment application made then, so could just serve to drag things out and possibly raise questions why you didn't check after having letters returned. The Witness Statement later may be a little awkward - letters were returned from the Claimant but I didn't worry about it... and so on lol.

I'm possibly being too generous to the solicitors but I can't see it being beneficial in the long run by not pointing it out.

[Helpplease2017]

Re: CPR request returned to sender

Thanks Amethyst

Technically - I've not had anything returned yet.

I was in such a rush to get the letters off I didn't put a return address on the slip. I wasn't asked to and didn't think.

But I have checked POs website and that's where I saw it has been returned.

I assume however that doesn't change your view?

To take your point further. If I call and they do agree an extension do I still file my defence or can I call the Court and explain the situation? Obviously worried the message doesn't hit the system and it looks like I haven't bothers to defend the claim in time!

[Diana M]

Re: CPR request returned to sender

Just thinking more on this and wondering if I should call the solicitor to make them aware of their error as their pack has been successfully delivered but they will probably not realise the request to AG has been returned?

Why would you call the Claimant's solicitor to make them aware of their error (if it is) so that they can remedy it thanks to you flagging up the problem?

Why would you request an extension of time to file your Defence?

You've sent a CCA Request to the Claimant using the address on the claim form. Has Arrow been previously corresponding with you from their Manchester address? If so why not send a new s 77-79 CCA Request to that address as Warwick has suggested?

A CCA Request is not a court document i.e. you've not 'served' the Claimant with anything at a wrong address (if you follow me ).

If you sent the CPR 31.14 Request drafted by Legal Beagles to the solicitors then it refers to your sending a CCA Request to the Claimant. Did you send that to them?

Who are the solicitors because they all litigate in different ways?

Before doing anything and before I can make any suggestions as to the way forward I would need to know what this claim is about in the first place. A Defence is a response to a claim so what do the Particulars of Claim say?

You say the claim is for an "old credit card". So how old - when was the account opened? How was it opened? Online, in response to an Invitation in the post, in branch etc etc?

Who was the original creditor? You need to send them a Subject Access Request asap to get the full history of the account.

It's my personal view that you're focusing on an address anomaly when your energy should be directed at the job in hand which is to file your Defence which you say is due tomorrow (today?). What is the claim Issue Date (top right on the claim form)? You have 33 days from that date to file your Defence.

Do you really want to give them more time to get their house in order? If they've made a mistake (with an address) then that's their problem.

Sending your CCA Request makes no difference as to whether or not the Claimant has got the documentation they need to prove their case. Either they have or they haven't. If they haven't then don't give them extra time to find it when they should have already had it in their possession before they issued the claim.

What documents did you ask for in your CPR 31.14 Request? Have you received an acknowledgement to it from the solicitors and/or have you checked Royal Mail to see if it was delivered?

If this claim is for over £11k it is likely to be allocated to the Fast Track where the loser has to pay the winner's costs unless there have been conduct issues along the way.

Every letter the Claimant's solicitor makes and every phone call they take from you will be noted on file in relation to their ultimate bill so you need to pick your battles wisely so as not to add unnecessary costs in case you have to pay them!

File your Defence on time is my personal view.

Di

[Diana M]

Re: CPR request returned to sender

Keeping quiet seems tactically like a good idea as all court docs would go to the wrong address and the claim may well end up being stayed,

Unless I've completely misunderstood the situation the address issue relates to the OP sending a CCA Request to Arrow/Claimant. A CCA Request is not a court document.

The Claimant's solicitors (as yet unknown) address would be the one used by the court for service of all legal paperwork. If the OP decides to instruct their own solicitors they too would use the solicitor's address on the claim form for service/correspondence.

Therefore I can't see why or in what circumstances the claim would become stayed (unless the Claimant failed to inform the court of their intention to continue with the proceedings after they have received a copy of the Defence served on them by the court).

Di