How do I stop a Family member trying to gain information from Fathers bank?

[redrose281]

Hi,
Apologies that this is going to be quite longer!

My Father in Law is in his mid 80's and now has early Alzheimers. Ever since his Wife died in 2002, I have looked after him, and all of his financial and personal affairs, and all has been fine.

Father in law would never agree to doing a POA, I suppose he never imagined he'd end up like this, and I didn't push it as it used to upset him and we were managing fine, but now of course we have problems.

The other day I received a voicemail claiming to be FIL's bank asking me to ring them. It was a mobile number which immediately made me suspicious so I rang and left a message for them to call me back but they didn't. Then I was at FIL's and his phone rang, I picked it up and a ladies voice asked to speak to ***** , which is one of his carers, I asked who it was and they said FIL's bank, I was immediately suspicious as why the heck would FILs bank be asking to speak to one of his carers? She carried on and said oh you sound like the person who left me a message, the more she spoke, the more I grew suspicious but asked how I could help and she said it didn't matter as it was all sorted out now!

I asked FIL if the bank had spoken to his carer earlier but he had no idea, so I just assumed it was a scammer and thought no more of it unttil I got a notification this evening that a new card had been ordered for FIL. I rang the banks Fraud dept but they wouldn't tell me anything as they needed to confirm with him that it was OK to speak to me so I am going to FIL's tomorrow to ring the bank.

I now have had notification that FIL's account have been frozen . I have a feeling that my Brother in Law is trying to gain access to FIL's bank accounts again to see what money he has, (it isn't the first time he's done this!), obviously FIL doesn't want anyone having access to his private business apart from me .

The bank has it in writing from FIL twice that i am the only one other than him who is to have access to his accounts, once in 2018, and once in 2022 .

I am very conscious of not saying too much to FIL as I don't want him worrying that his accounts aren't safe so I haven't gone into detail with him yet, but I need someone else's opinion please as mine and Hubby's heads are spinning with it all.

My questions are:-

1. Would the bank ring from a mobile number?

2. Surely the bank shouldn't be ringing and asking to speak to FIL's carer? They'd obviously spoken to her once already to have been able to ask for her by name, that can't be right but I suspect it is her who rang my Brother In Law and told him there was a problem with FIL's account and he has then rung the bank to try get info.

3. How can I get the bank to put an end to Brother in Law keeping contacting them trying to get details from them about FIL's accounts and them even entertaining the idea?

4. Clearly Brother In Law has asked for a new card but as I get FIL's mail, I am unsure how he will be able to get the new card ? Would the bank go to FIL's on Brother In Laws say so?

5. I want to cause as little upset to FIL as possible as he is like a Father to me, so I am just trying to be more informed before I speak to FIL's bank tomorrow, in his presence.

I should say that Brother in Law never does a thing for FIL, myself and my Husband do literally everything for him other than his personal hygiene and toilet needs as he'd die of embarrassment if I tried to do anything like that for him.

We are so close, he says I'm the Daughter he always wished he had and it is breaking my heart now he is getting frail that the vultures are waiting to feast on the bones!

Please can anyone help me?

Apologies again for this being so long.

[redrose281]

Can anyone advise please?

[girlatwork10]

We had something similar with my eldest sister trying to take over my mother when she reached 80. My brother had to take my mother to the bank and get all the account details changed, because 1000's were being taken out monthly from cash machines w/o mum's knowledge. The police interviewed her but later dropped proceedings

My advice then is to go to the police, since this is [or potentially] a criminal fraud matter; there is no way a bank would be phoning the carer of one of their elderly customers - nor from a mobile phone; banks are far too security conscious for that; a letter to the FIL would be their first step.
(if a phone call was made from a bank it would be using their national call centre tel no. and ''number withheld''.)

Is there any way you can get the FIL to the bank? If you cant you might personally go to the bank and get their advice, and / or go to the police and cite the attempts at possible fraud - the weird phone calls, etc.

Then there's the carer. You may have to speak to her employer, if iit isnt easy to confront her directly. I am sure you could get good advice from the police to stop this in the bud... but it may be a step you may find difficult, as it could affect relationships

Edit. ''She carried on and said oh you sound like the person who left me a message, the more she spoke, the more I grew suspicious but asked how I could help and she said it didn't matter as it was all sorted out now!''

This could even be a criminal gang that has nothing to do with family; there was a case where a woman - who was getting a lot of strange phonecalls after her mum died - came home from holiday to find her house had its locks changed; they even changed the deeds - or on the brink of it; if she hadn't phoned he solicitor on that day, she would have lost the house

Is your husband the eldest in the family - whatever, he should really be the one doing something, as the blood relative?. Your bro in law maybe meeting the FIL w/o your knowledge, and using FIL's card....
behind your back bro in law and the carer may be accusing you of ... who knows .... and the bank has responded by freezing the acc.

[Pezza54]

Any suspicious activity on an account and the bank will freeze the account and issue a new account number and bank card to the account holder.
Are the regular bank statements being sent to your FIL's home address? Is he opening the letters? Is the carer opening them for him or are the envelopes still sealed until you visit?
It is possible that your FIL opened a letter from the bank, was confused or suspicious about something and asked his carer to telephone the bank on his behalf? There is no reason why you shouldn't speak to the carer involved. The last thing your FIL wants is a carer that can't be trusted
I experienced similar problems with my father who was living on his own before he moved into a care home. Your FIL's memory will only get worse and unless he has a full time trusted carer he will become at risk of distraction burglary, which the elderly person struggles to recover from

[redrose281]

girlatwork10 thank you so much for your reply.
I'm so sorry to hear about the problems with your Mum, it's the oldest here who is causing the problems too, he wants control over everything to do with FIL's finances, yet wants nothing to do with day to day things like visiting, (he goes once, maybe twice a week if we are lucky!), shopping, picking up med's etc and can be very short with FIL when talking to him.

It's impossible to get FIL to the bank, he is totally immobile now, is doubly incontinent and needs two people and a lift to even move him from his bed to his chair, and neither Hubby or I are spring chickens any longer and both have bad backs, knees etc, all the things that come with old age I'm afraid.

Since posting, I have now spoken to the fraud dept at the bank in FIL's presence, and believe it or not, it was the bank ringing from a mobile number and having the strange conversation with me, and asking for the carer by name! I told the fraud dept that we'd received a text message confirming a new debit card had been ordered for FIL's account but it wasn't us, he then advised us to change the passwords and pin when the new card arrived and I said I couldn't as the account was blocked so needed releasing, he then came back to me and said the card had been ordered in the local branch on Wed's morning and it was them who'd put a block on the account, I was astounded and told him everything I've written in this post and he advised I put my concerns in writing for attention of the manager and hand it in at the branch, but I have heard nothing back from them yet.

Who knows what my Brother In Law has said to get the branch to do what they have done, but the new card arrived for FIL's account on Saturday so as advised by the Fraud Deot, I tried to re register for online banking to change the details but a message came up saying that this couldn't be done as it had already been Registered for online banking, so it looks as if Brother In Law has somehow managed to gain access to FIL's account? It has to be through the branch? I can't believe that with all the precautions FIL put in place that Brother In Law has seemingly achieved what he wanted....I am wondering if money talks as Brother In Law is a multi millionaire and banks at the same branch!

I am appalled at what's going on! My Husband is devastated but doesn't want FIL upsetting, (nor do I), so we are reluctant to involve the police at the moment ,but I will be making an appointment to go in and see the bank manager ASAP!

Thank you again for your advice, it has been very helpful.

[redrose281]

Hi Pezza54 thank you for your reply.

FIL has online statements which I show him every month on my laptop, though recently I can't say that he shows much interest? We switched to paperless a couple of years ago before Fil's Alzheimers was too bad as he said he could hear people in his office rustling papers and didn't want the many people he has through his home, knowing his personal business.

FIL's mail is redirected to come to our house at FIL's request, again, this was when he was pretty much OK mentally, so there is no way the carer has rung the bank for FIL as she wouldn't know any of his banking details to ring and ask anything. I think the bank has rung about an unusual transaction on FIL's account and spoken to the carer, she has explained FIL has dementia and she has said she will ring FIL's Son and then rung the Brother In Law , and the bank have rung back to ask if the message has been passed on....I'm only guessing that's what's happened? I don't like this particular carer as sometimes I feel she can be a bit sarcastic to FIL, but she Partners another carer who is absolutely brilliant and very good with FIL, so I have kept quiet up to now . She will have rung Brother I'm Law as he often says as eldest he is next of kin. FIL's care company have made a new ruling that everything has to go through the office now, e.g until recently the carers would write down items FIL needed for shopping and text it to me but they aren't allowed to do that now as apparently some Families were complaining about being bothered by carers so it's now been stopped, it's crazy as I'd sooner they ring me multiple times a day if it helps FIL, but that's how it is now, so basically , I can't speak to the carer directly, I will have to speak to the office and it could potentially lose her her job and I want to be fully furnished with the facts before I do that....I am actually more worried about FIL's close Family stealing his things as they've already helped themselves to a number of his possessions as they say they will end up with them anyway, e.g some items of his Late Wives jewellery , I'd like to really give them what for about it but my Husband is anxious to keep the peace whilst FIL is still here as it would really upset him and would make Family occasions uncomfortable, but they will be told exactly what we think when the time is right.

I'm so sorry to hear your Father experienced similar problems, it's awful isn't it, I just don't know how people can behave like that, they clearly have no conscience!

Thank you again for your reply, I'm so grateful x

[girlatwork10]

''' Who knows what my Brother In Law has said to get the branch to do what they have done, but the new card arrived for FIL's account on Saturday so as advised by the Fraud Deot, I tried to re register for online banking to change the details but a message came up saying that this couldn't be done as it had already been Registered for online banking, so it looks as if Brother In Law has somehow managed to gain access to FIL's account? It has to be through the branch? I can't believe that with all the precautions FIL put in place that Brother In Law has seemingly achieved what he wanted....I am wondering if money talks as Brother In Law is a multi millionaire and banks at the same branch!....''

If you can get the FIL to sign a letter, the bank can give him an SAR - a SUBJECT ACCESS REQUEST. This would shown up all communications, emails, visits, tel calls made on a time-line going back years. It wont give the ID's of pos corrupt people - but you can guess that from the data,
You just need to get the letter written up and posted / or else hand into to the bank, getting a receipt / recorded delivery. Any corruption, slack precautions, can be reported to the police;
Best wishes

[redrose281]

''' Who knows what my Brother In Law has said to get the branch to do what they have done, but the new card arrived for FIL's account on Saturday so as advised by the Fraud Deot, I tried to re register for online banking to change the details but a message came up saying that this couldn't be done as it had already been Registered for online banking, so it looks as if Brother In Law has somehow managed to gain access to FIL's account? It has to be through the branch? I can't believe that with all the precautions FIL put in place that Brother In Law has seemingly achieved what he wanted....I am wondering if money talks as Brother In Law is a multi millionaire and banks at the same branch!....''

If you can get the FIL to sign a letter, the bank can give him an SAR - a SUBJECT ACCESS REQUEST. This would shown up all communications, emails, visits, tel calls made on a time-line going back years. It wont give the ID's of pos corrupt people - but you can guess that from the data,
You just need to get the letter written up and posted / or else hand into to the bank, getting a receipt / recorded delivery. Any corruption, slack precautions, can be reported to the police;
Best wishes

Hi girlatwork10

Unfortunately FIL is unable to even hold a pen now, let alone sign his signature, so I`m not sure quite where we go from here? This is when I really wish we`d pushed FIL to do a LPOA, as his wishes are now being ignored because there is no LPOA in place, and seemingly the bank are choosing to ignore the letters that they already have on file signed by FIL before his Alzheimers became advanced as it is now.

Thank you very much for your reply and suggestions though, I am very grateful.

[Pezza54]

You need to apply to the Court of Protection to become FIL's "Deputy"
Please read the advice about this role at www.ageuk.org.uk

It is possible that your BIL has already applied and been appointed Deputy. There can be more than one and they can act jointly or severally Stormy waters ahead? Having said that I think a person appointed a Deputy has a duty to inform close relatives about their new role

An initial application fee of £365 and annual supervision fee of £320 applies and you can apply online

[redrose281]

Hi Pezza54

Thank you for your reply and advice, I'm sorry its taken so long to reply but so much has happened since I last posted that I'm stressed to death with it all !

I apologise as this is going to be a long one!

Two weeks ago we received a letter from a Social Worker stating that he'd had a meeting with FIL as it has been reported that FIL was being subjected to possible financial abuse and that FIL said my Husband and I look after his financial affairs and also said he hasn't received any bank statements since September 13th 2022, and therefore, this guy wanted to come and interview us both! I'm astounded, we have never taken a penny from FIL, in fact quite the opposite, we buy him loads of things and don't ask him to pay for them but obviously Brother in Law has made the accusation! I rang the Social Worker to ask who was present at the meeting with FIL as there is no way he's said that he hasn't received bank statements since 13th Sept 2022 as he doesn't have the capacity to say such a thing, but that date is the date of the last statement in FIL's House and all his old statements are upstairs and FIL is immobile and couldn't even get out of his chair, let alone upstairs, the Social worker told me that Brother in Law was present with FIL at the meeting. I asked if he knew FIL has Alzheimers and he said yes, but FIL has capacity....I know FIL doesn't have capacity and have it on record from his GP but basically this Social Worker has had a meeting with FIL when he doesn't have capacity and it is clear Brother in Law has done the talking as FIL just isn't able to participate in a normal conversation any longer, let alone take part in what sounds like an interrogation, how can this be right?

In 2022, before FIL was really bad, he was concerned about his statements going to the house as alsorts of different people have access to the house now and he didn't want them knowing his business, so we took the decision to go paperless and each month we go through his statements with him on the laptop, though for the last year or more he really isn't interested, we still do it.

I contacted the Social Worker and said we were happy to have him come to our home to interview us and he made an appt for next week. After that conversation, when I went to pay FIL's Care Invoice for that week I found out his bank account was blocked. If you remember, I believed it was Brother in Law who'd cancelled FIL's debit card, ordered a new one and had a block put on FIL's account.

We haven't said anything to Brother in Law yet as we wanted to have the interview with Social Services first and then hit him with the facts. Anyway, as FIL's account is blocked to us, we have been unable to transfer the money to the Care Company for his care costs, and have been unable to withdraw money to pay for FIL's groceries etc, we didn't want to stress FIL, so we have been making the payments ourselves, and we have been paying for his groceries etc.

Now comes another huge shock...it wasn't Brother in Law who'd cancelled FIL's debit card and blocked us out of his account, we have found out it was this Social Worker! We are astounded as the Social Worker hasn't informed anyone what he has done to FIL's bank account, and if it wasn't for us, FIL's Care Costs wouldn't have been made, so the Care Company would have stopped his care visits, ( we know this as when FIL's payment was made late one week as his account had been hacked, they threatened to withdraw Care unless it was paid immediately!), and he would have had no money for food shopping! Is the Social Worker allowed to do this to FIL's bank account and not even notify anyone as he could have caused real hardship to FIL were we not subsidising him!

We have paid out over £1500.00 for FIL's care costs and groceries etc since his bank account was blocked and we just can't afford to carry on paying this out for much longer as we aren't wealthy by any means , so can anyone advise what we can do next?

The Social Worker text me yesterday asking for all of FIL's bank statements, now I know FIL wouldn't want strangers knowing his business, but at the same time we don't want to refuse to supply them as we don't want him thinking we have anything to hide, is the Social Worker able to get the statements without FIL's permission, bearing in mind FIL doesn't actually have capacity any longer?

I am absolutely heart broken to think anyone would ever think we would take advantage of FIL, all we have ever done is take care of him and protect him, and I am so upset for my Husband too as he is devastated his Dad has supposedly accused us of financially abusing him, I've told him that his Dad would never do such a thing and if he has said anything he must have been tutored as he just isn't capable of doing it off his own back as he can't remember what he said two minutes ago, let alone bring a complaint and his Alzheimers is so advanced now he is basically living in a fantasy world, e.g yesterday he told his carers he'd been to a bit of a wedding at Tower Bridge that morning , and when the GP visited him the other day, he asked the GP to ring me which she did and the GP put him on the phone and FIL told me 'they' had taken him to the Blue Anchor (a pub he used to go to years ago!), and just left him there and he wanted me to go pick him up, he then begged the GP to take him home....I think the GP was quite shocked at how far he'd deteriorated since she last saw him, (other GP's have seen him in that time obviously), yet this Social Worker had supposedly had a meeting with this man and stated he has capacity, when it is obvious to anyone that he doesn't!

Whatever way this goes, it is going to be the end of any kind of relationship with Brother in Law and his Family as my Husband will never forgive him for putting us, and his Dad through all of this upset, and it makes me really sad as I'm very close to my Niece and Nephews.

Can you please give me any advice as my head is spinning with all of this, and I really didn't realise a Social Worker had such powers? This whole situation has rocked me to my core.

Thank you to anyone who can give us any sort of advice as we are over our heads with this.

[Pezza54]

Your husband should write to both the bank manager and the Head of Social Services and politely but firmly ask for an explanation as to why the bank has frozen your FIL's account after contact by an unauthorised person, and why the social worker failed to speak to your husband before contacting the bank
He should state he is now having difficulty paying the home care fees and his father urgently needs a new debit card to pay the bills

Have you and your husband applied to the Court of Protection to become FIL's "Deputy" yet?

Without the paper bank statements (since September 2022) and not having computer access to your FIL's bank account how can your BIL accuse and prove your FIL has suffered financial abuse. This is a serious accusation that has been made to a public department and if unproven you might be able to consult a lawyer about compensation

[redrose281]

Hi Pezza54
Thank you for your reply and advice, I will get Husband to write to the bank and the Head of Social Services asking those questions.

We haven't applied to the Court of Protection yet as quite honestly, we don't have the money at the moment with having to pay FIL's bills.

It's quite simple, Brother in Law can't access FIL's statements or bank account and he can't prove FIL has suffered financial abuse as he hasn't , but clearly this Social Worker has acted on the malicious accusation of someone with a hidden agenda, i.e the Brother In Law.

The Social Worker was supposed to be coming to interview my Husband and I next week, I've asked for him to confirm a date and time and he hasn't replied to me so we are just left another weekend with this stress hanging over our head, yet
My Sister in Law has just let it slip that the Social Worker has arranged to meet FIL with Brother in Law next Wed's, apparently its to assess his capacity? I know FIL hasn't got capacity and this has been verified by his GP, so how can the Social Worker, with no medical qualifications assess FIL's capacity? Shouldnt he have assessed FIL's capacity before interrogating him, freezing his bank account and making unfounded allegations against my Husband and I? The Social Workers Investigation was started over 5 weeks ago, how can it be right that he is only going to assess her capacity next week? What do you think will happen when he realises FIL doesn't have capacity?

I'm sorry for taking up so much of your time and really appreciate all of your help and advice, but we are over our head with this as it's not something we have dealt with before.

[redrose281]

Hi Pezza54 again, do you think we should show the Social Worker the letters from FIL to his bank, (written when he still had capacity), stating he didn't want my Brother in Law knowing of any of his financial or personal affairs, as this Social Worker has once again invited my Brother in Law to be with FIL when he goes to assess his capacity next week, and my Brother in Law would be the last person FIL would want to be there if he was still of right mind as he has done some awful things to MIL and FIL over the years and they know he is motivated by greed, not by a desire to take care of FIL....e.g Brother in Law is a multi millionaire, yet when the Care Company asked him to pay the outstanding bill he flat out refused, so my Husband and I had to pay it or risk Care for FIL being withdrawn!

[Pezza54]

These are my thoughts. We have suffered similar problems with my FIL years ago. He ended up living at home on his own with 2 carers visiting twice a day and my wife also visiting most days, until he had to go into a nursing home He was having falls in the house and only the ambulance workers could lift him off the floor.
Social workers carry out means tests to establish how much money, if any, the social services contribute to care costs. As your FIL and BIL have not got current bank statements and do not have internet access to his bank account the social worker is unable to carry out the means test, so is probably going to ask you for this financial information. I do not believe it is the social workers job to interrogate your husband about the possible misappropriation of bank funds only to establish regular expenditure on your FIL's needs (which is part of the means test)
You stated your FIL is immobile, struggles to get out of his chair and can't get upstairs. The social worker is likely to be concerned about this and may offer equipment, even a stair lift which my FIL received. Your FIL may also be offered a place in an adult day care centre that will provide mental stimulation and the occasional excursion
If you are still worried about the interview with the social worker you should contact your local CAB and they will hopefully put your mind at rest over the telephone or following a face-to-face meeting

[redrose281]

Hi Pezza54

Thank you for your reply and advice once again, I really appreciate how you are trying to help me but I think with me rambling on so much, you may have misunderstood what is happening so I will try to put it more factually.

Firstly though, I`d like to say how sorry I am that you and your Wife were put through a similar situation with your FIL as I know how upsetting it is, and I hope things have sorted out for you now.

Right, I keep referring to the guy from the Social who is coming to see FIL as a Social Worker, he is indeed a Social Worker, but he is from the Safeguarding Adults Hub and is investigating the potential risk of financial abuse of my FIL. He isn`t coming to do a means test for FIL, that was all done long ago and FIL has 2 carers visit him 4 times daily to see to his personal needs, putting him on the commode, washing/drying/dressing him etc, getting him up and out of bed and putting him back to bed again later. FIL lives solely in his lounge now, he has a bed in there and is unable to walk at all, he basically has to stay where he is put. The Social Worker is coming this week to assess whether FIL has the mental capacity to make his own decisions now, nothing more.

It is my belief that FIL`s mental capacity to make his own decisions should have been assessed when this Social Worker first visited FIL almost 5 weeks ago now, before he started his investigation, but instead, he just assumed FIL had capacity and went ahead with the interrogation, when clearly from what I now know, Brother In Law answered the bulk of the questions as he knows FIL would have been unable to do so, and Brother in Law has put his own narrative forward with his own hidden agenda, rather than the truth of FIL`s situation, hence my Husband and I now are faced with these horrendous allegations against us, when I know they have no proof as we have done nothing wrong , all we have done is look after my FIL to the best of our ability for the last 6 years since he had his stroke. When I asked FIL about the interrogation, his reply was that he hadn`t spoken to anyone and had no idea who had, but that it had nothing to do with him.

This Social Worker is adamant that he wants FIL`s bank statements to investigate the allegations, I have told him that I cannot agree to that without FIL`s permission, but that he is very welcome to see mine and my Husbands bank statements to prove we have done nothing wrong. After me saying this, all of a sudden the Social Worker wants to see FIL to assess whether he has mental capacity or not.

My questions are these :-

1. Is the Social Worker allowed to go into FIL`s bank and cancel his debit card and freeze his bank account as he has done, and has ended up potentially harming FIL as he is unable to pay his Care Costs now or even buy his own food...if he didn`t have Husband and I who are picking up and paying his bills, the Care Company would have stopped his Care and he would have no food!

2. Is the bank allowed to cancel FIL`s debit card and freeze his bank account on the say so of a Social Worker who has no evidence of financial abuse of FIL.?

3. Is the Social Worker allowed to assess FIL`s mental capacity at this stage when he has already begun his investigation as it is now in his interest to say that FIL DOES have mental capacity as he has gone gung ho with his interrogation of FIL and his investigation without first establishing whether or not FIL had the mental capacity to even answer his questions. I believe that someone else should now assess FIL`s mental capacity who isn`t involved with the investigation.

4. FIL`s GP has already diagnosed that FIL doesn`t have the mental capacity to make his own decisions some time ago, should I make the Social Worker aware of FIL`s diagnosis?

5. Is the Social Worker allowed to demand FIL`s bank statements asI know FIL wouldn`t want anyone else looking at his personal finances as it`s always been something he has been so against, and which is why he gave the bank written authority to only deal with my Husband and specifically stated that he didn`t want Brother in Law being given any information....he did this long before he lost capacity.

6. Should I give the Social Worker copies of FIL`s written permission to the bank giving only my Husband and Myself access t his bank account?

7. The Social Worker has asked Brother in Law to be present when he assesses FIL next week, this is the last person FIL would have wanted with him prior to him losing capacity as he never trusted him, are we able to say we don`t wish Brother in law to be with FIL when he is being assessed. FIL is frightened to death of Brother in Law, he tries to bully FIL and this Social Worker is basically making FIL`s support someone he is frightened of, it beggars belief!

I`m so sorry for keeping bombarding the forum with all these lengthy posts, but it is so important that we know what can and can`t be done and we don`t have the money to pay a solicitor right now . To take the pressure off Pezza54 are Amethyst or des8 able to give any help/advice please too? I am compiling my letters to hand into the bank and the head of the department of Safeguarding Adults on Monday morning, and I want to be sure that my content is correct.

Many thanks in anticipation of any responses.