Questions are growing about a possible bubble in the debt industry.

[Debt Camel]

Re: Questions are growing about a possible bubble in the debt industry.

Indeed, one of my discontinued claim, has two dates on it, 2012 and 2013..like plucking things out of thin air. Today I have put together a letter to have the original default removed..see what happens..

why on earth do you want this default date removed? then the debt, with the arrears, will stay on your credit record for ever! Think twice before you decide this is really a good idea.

[beaconsman]

Re: Questions are growing about a possible bubble in the debt industry.

Why will it stay on forever, i meant the entire entry be removed as it is not a true and accurate record. The debt has been written off, the balance shows zero, amount owing, is zero. I have the letter of discontinuance and the wording on the letter says it is no closed. Noddle agreed as I disputed the entry, it is now closed but lowlifes continued entering it up to feb 2016.

I want it removed as it is the only thing stopping a remortgage application.

[Debt Camel]

Re: Questions are growing about a possible bubble in the debt industry.

OK, asking for the debt to be removed is fine - asking for just the default to be deleted wouldn't be!

[sidley]

Re: Questions are growing about a possible bubble in the debt industry.

A bit more on the Cabot float in todays Times business section, In the penultimate paragraph I'm sure it should read that Cabot estimate their equity at 5x what other traders think, as was in the Times a few days ago.

[Amethyst]

Re: Questions are growing about a possible bubble in the debt industry.

Apparently ....




Ahh

[sidley]

Re: Questions are growing about a possible bubble in the debt industry.

I thought they would pull out.

How can you value assets of piles of delinquent consumer debts, bought from organisations, that presumably would collect on the debt if they stood a chance, when you have no idea how many you'll be able to collect. The face value of the assets may be 1 billion but how much are they worth?

[sidley]

Re: Questions are growing about a possible bubble in the debt industry.

Encore Capital Group which owns the subsidiary Cabot says this about itself today!!

Encore Capital Group is an international specialty finance company that provides debt recovery solutions and other related services for consumers across a broad range of financial assets.

Through its subsidiaries around the globe, Encore purchases portfolios of consumer receivables from major banks and credit unions.
Encore partners with individuals as they repay their debt obligations, helping them on the road to financial recovery and ultimately improving their economic well-being.


Really, .....improving their economic well-being..... so that's what the threatograms are for; improving their lives!!

[Onestepatatime]

Re: Questions are growing about a possible bubble in the debt industry.

Thanks for this peach of a thread, what an uplifting present prior to Chrimbo!

I'm just surprised it's taken this long for them to realise!

[thedirtyhound]

Re: Questions are growing about a possible bubble in the debt industry.

The problem facing these companies is that bank lending has got a lot tighter over the last few years, so far fewer people are able to take out big sums of credit.

Given that the lending criteria are stricter, less people are likely to default. For those that do, it will be most likely down to a change in circumstances, ie divorce, redundancy, illness, etc, in which case even though they have defaulted on the sums borrowed, they may be unable to pay back the money. The debts that do go bad are likely to be more toxic.

One way to put the debt purchase firms out of business is simply to make them work very hard for their money. If they write to you, don't ignore the letter. Answer it and put them to as much trouble as possible. If every case they pursued ended up in court, they wouldn't have enough staff to attend the hearings or enough money to pay the fees.

The recent change in pre-action protocols for civil claims won't help them either, for they are now expected to be able to provide information upon request prior to issuing claims. Many people on this forum have experienced difficulty in getting documents (ie copies of credit agreements, statements, notices of assignment, etc) even after they have received a claim. That, at least theoretically, should no longer happen.

So even if you are the sort of person who has kept everything, should one of these companies come after you, ask them for all the documents, even if you have them already.

For one old account of mine I requested a copy of the original agreement on three occasions and got three different items. Finally they dug up a scanned copy of the original, but it is totally illegible. They could never take me to court on that, but it didn't stop them from trying to trick me.

Some of these firms will undoubtedly go bust in the near future, but as with the banks a few years ago, some of the stronger ones will take over the business of the weaker ones to preserve the "credibility" of the industry. But they will be taking over toxic debt and it will only be a matter of time before the industry as a whole ceases to exist.

The days of the DPCs and credit management companies are coming to an end.

YIPPEE!

[EXC]

Re: Questions are growing about a possible bubble in the debt industry.

From today's Times:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/b...loat-6snmf9dfq

Britain’s biggest debt collector has pulled its plans for a London flotation, blaming poor and volatile market conditions amid claims it was overvalued.

In what would have been one of the market’s biggest listings of the year, Cabot Credit Management had hoped to complete the pricing of its shares this week. Yesterday it said that moving forward with the initial public offering “would not be in the best interest of the company or its shareholders”.

Cabot buys debt owed by consumers who, for example, cannot pay their mobile or credit card bills from banks at a discount and then seeks to collect the outstanding payments. It had intended to raise £195 million through the flotation, which its private equity owners had hoped would value the company at about £1 billion.


However, market sources said that it had become clear within the last 24 to 48 hours that Cabot would not be able to sell the shares, with only about 40-50 per cent of the book covered by orders at the lower end of the £830 million and £981 million pricing range.

The Times understands that a number of institutions had declined to buy any shares or had sought to buy a smaller quantity, spooked by concerns about the health of the UK consumer market and wider market volatility.

One trader said: “Everyone we went to see at the moment is telling us ‘I don’t like buying UK consumer stuff right now’. I don’t like the headlines [on consumer debt] and we own a bunch of Arrow Global right now anyway.”

Shares in Arrow Global, the closest listed peer to Cabot, have fallen 14 per cent over five sessions of trading and one fund manager warned this week of a “lack of momentum”. Those who believed that the £830 million bottom end of Cabot’s range “looked OK” were “surprised by how badly Arrow is doing”, the source said.

The cost of credit protection for Lowell, another unlisted debt collector, has risen 30 per cent in the past two days as concerns about the long-term health of the sector has risen.

The Times reported earlier this week that questions were being raised about Cabot’s estimated £1 billion value. Critics claimed that Cabot’s costs of securing its “estimated remaining collections” from defaulted consumers could be much higher than it anticipated meaning its collections could be much lower in the coming years.

Hedge funds, including some which are already shorting the shares of Arrow Global and Intrum Justitia, a European listed debt collector, suggested that Cabot’s equity could be worth only as much as £200 million.

Ken Stannard, chief executive of Cabot, said: “The high level of engagement and interest that we received from a wide array of investors was very encouraging but the timing has been unfortunate with respect to IPO market conditions.”

Cabot is owned by JC Flowers, the US private equity firm, and Encore Capital Group, a debt management and recovery business that is quoted on Nasdaq and whose shares fell 10 per cent in early trading on the news.

Ashish Masih, Encore’s president and chief executive, indicated last night that Cabot may still be listed in future.

Analysis

Debt collectors put on notice as Cabot float sinks

It would appear as if, for now, London’s stock market is only big enough for one debt collector — and it isn’t Cabot Credit Management (Deirdre Hipwell and Callum Jones write). The plans of Britain’s largest collector to float were dashed after a combination of market turbulence, concerns over the proposed valuation and the volatility of Arrow Global, the only London-listed peer, hit demand for its shares.

Cabot’s failed £1 billion float also comes amid a period of uncertainty where Arqiva, the mobile mast company, had to pull its float recently and Bakkavor, the food group, only succeeded in listing after dropping the asking price to 180p a share, from an earlier guidance of 195p to 235p.

One equity capital markets expert said Cabot had clearly been hit by “a bit of volatility, plus downward pressure on valuations, and this is a sector which also struggles on the ethical side too [with some investors] — I would say it was a combination of all three factors”.

Cabot, which is owned by JC Flowers and Encore Capital Group, has indicated that it could look to list again but its failed float and declining sentiment about debt collectors could raise wider questions about the long-term health of the sector.

Specialist investors have been warning of a bubble in the market for the debts of poorer borrowers, pointing out that in the past five years €14 billion has been raised through the European public debt markets to finance the purchase of non-performing loans. Critics say that if it becomes harder, and more expensive, for debt collectors to collect loans then servicing and refinancing their own debt piles could become extremely difficult. This could be even more pronounced if collectors’ access to Europe’s high yield debt market is restricted or cut off.

One hedge fund investor said: “Recent figures showed that 50 per cent of UK adults could not absorb an increase in costs of £100 a week, [indicating] that if there is a slowdown from Brexit it could become very hard to collect.”

Cabot has a debt pile of £1.1 billion but no debt that matures before 2020. Another market source said: “If Cabot can’t IPO, far more indebted debt collectors will become zombies for their private equity owners.”

[sidley]

Re: Questions are growing about a possible bubble in the debt industry.

Cabot has a debt pile of £1.1 billion but no debt that matures before 2020. Another market source said: “If Cabot can’t IPO, far more indebted debt collectors will become zombies for their private equity owners.”

Now we are going to be chased by zombies!

Perhaps we should call them The Walking Debt Collectors. New on AMC

[MIKE770]

Re: Questions are growing about a possible bubble in the debt industry.

they failed to float their extra shares - state of the DCA sector not good hip hip Hoooooorayyyyyyyyyyy

[sidley]

Re: Questions are growing about a possible bubble in the debt industry.

Another article doing the rounds today:

Two million Brits struggling with debt have credit limit raised by card companies without asking for it
Citizens Advice figures show unscrupulous firms are lending too freely and putting individuals at risk as a third of people already struggling financially were given higher credit limits
Unscrupulous credit card firms are pushing thousands of pounds worth of extra credit onto millions of people who can’t afford to pay, a debt charity has warned.
Six million people had the credit limited increased on their card last year - yet they didn’t ask for an increase.
Citizens Advice figures show card companies are lending too freely and putting individuals at risk as a third of people already struggling financially were given higher credit limits.
Over the past year 8.4million card holders had credit limits increased, but just one in four actually asked for it.
Average increases were £1,481 and one in ten were £3,000 or more.
Dawn, 53 knows the financial heartache unsolicited credit limit increases can cause. She has ended up in a debt spiral unable to pay her credit card bill.
Dawn, from Blackburn in Lancashire, has arthritis in her back and had to give up work. She relies on employment and support allowance. She was approached on the street and offered a credit card with a £500 limit.
She had never had a card and didn’t want to turn the offer down as the people were really kind to her. Before she had reached the £500 credit limit it was extended to £1,000. Then without any requests from Dawn it rose to £3,500.
Dawn said: “It was all good at first but the more I spent the more the interest went up and the higher the repayments. I used the card for unexpected bills such as a big vet bill for my cat. Then I spent too much on it over Christmas.
“It’s too easy to spend on plastic, it’s not like handing over cash. I kept thinking I’ll get on top of it in the New Year. But then it was too late.”
Dawn was paying her credit card bill, just the minimum repayment each month, then having to use the card for essential bills as she had no money left.
“I’ve been a fool and now can’t afford the repayments. I know it’s partly my fault but I didn’t really understand how credit cards worked. When you are struggling on a low income and someone offers you credit you will use it when you’re desperate.
“I spend all of my time worrying about this. I’m scared to open letters or answer phone calls and haven’t had a proper night’s sleep for months.”
Citizens Advice wants the Chancellor to announce a ban on unsolicited credit limit increases in his Budget statement next week, to protect vulnerable people like Dawn.
Gillian Guy, chief executive of Citizens Advice, said: “It’s clear that credit card companies are contributing to the rise in consumer debt.
“Rather than credit card holders seeking to take on more debts, lenders are actively pushing it on people without enough consideration as to who can afford to pay and who can’t.”
City watchdog, the Financial Conduct Authority has carried out a study into the credit card market and proposed new rules. These include greater control over credit limits.
he FCA wants new credit card customers to be given the choice on whether to make firms obtain consent for each unsolicited credit increase. And it wants existing card holders to have a straightforward way to decline increases or choose how they will be offered in future.
Richard Koch, Head of Cards at UK Finance said: “Credit card providers are completely committed to responsible lending and the industry has come together to voluntarily agree new protocols to ask customers whether they would prefer to opt-out or opt-in for any credit limit increase offers.
“Furthermore, the customers who the Financial Conduct Authority and Citizens Advice are most concerned about will be excluded from receiving any such offers.
“The regulator has confirmed that it is satisfied that the proposal relating to unsolicited credit limit increases achieves its objectives in an effective and timely manner.”

Seems the FCA is happy with the way companies are pushing debt onto people who can't afford it.
"..........to ask customers whether they would prefer to opt-out or opt-in for any credit limit increase offers....." presumably another small tick box somewhere on the form that very few will see or read.

[Amethyst]

Re: Questions are growing about a possible bubble in the debt industry.

The FCA wants new credit card customers to be given the choice on whether to make firms obtain consent for each unsolicited credit increase. And it wants existing card holders to have a straightforward way to decline increases or choose how they will be offered in future.

That's what it should be doing so I wouldn't say the FCA are happy with the way things were.

[warwick65]

Re: Questions are growing about a possible bubble in the debt industry.

I wonder if we will now see a flurry of claims particularly against homeowners followed by charging orders . Once these have been obtained the debts become more tangible and a more guaranteed source of income.

Equally even non non homeowners who are in work with attachment of earnings orders . Interesting times ahead to add to the train wreck we are already heading for