Monetary Judgement threat. ( M&S IDEM Compass Abbey Solicitors )

[pt2537]

Re: Monetary Judgement threat. ( M&S IDEM Compass Abbey Solicitors )

Quick Question!!!

Was this one of the store cards that got upgraded to a credit card? If it was, then there may be some points to look at, i must confess havent read the thread as i havent got time at the mo

[warwick65]

Re: Monetary Judgement threat. ( M&S IDEM Compass Abbey Solicitors )

Hi Rev

Another quick question I am afraid

Roughly how much is still owing on this account?

Also, although the form does reference T&Cs it doesn't say where they are so it would be interesting to know how you opened this account . Were those T&C's present when you signed the agreement ?

[Diana M]

Re: Monetary Judgement threat. ( M&S IDEM Compass Abbey Solicitors )

Quick Question!!!

Was this one of the store cards that got upgraded to a credit card? If it was, then there may be some points to look at, i must confess havent read the thread as i havent got time at the mo

Apparently not

Is there any possibility that the M & S credit card was originally a store card which was 'upgraded' to a credit card?

If so then the case of Santander v Mayhew (that's me ) may help you if they do issue proceedings >

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/h...wjudgement.pdf

Di

Thank you @Diana M for bringing the case of Santander v Mayhew to my attention but unfortunately it was a credit card that i had applied for.

Kind Regards
Reverandbill

Di

[pt2537]

Re: Monetary Judgement threat. ( M&S IDEM Compass Abbey Solicitors )

Apparently not






Di

yes , apparently not.

[Reverandbill]

Re: Monetary Judgement threat. ( M&S IDEM Compass Abbey Solicitors )

HI pt2537 in answer to your question the card was not a store card it was a straight credit card that i applied for.

Kind regards
The Rev.

[Reverandbill]

Re: Monetary Judgement threat. ( M&S IDEM Compass Abbey Solicitors )

Hi warwick65
Thanks for your reply to my thread. Unfortunately it was that long ago back in 2004 when i applied for the card. I was sent the form to my home address and i'm only guessing that the T&C came with the application form or credit agreement form. None of which i still retain. The balance outstanding on this account is £7390.08

Kind regards
The Rev

[Reverandbill]

Re: Monetary Judgement threat. ( M&S IDEM Compass Abbey Solicitors )

Thanks Amethyst for your reply and continued support. Just to answer your question on the PPI on this card Abbey tried to claim this without any success. I'm still waiting on all paper work from Abbey but i will be sending them a reminder next week.
It is my intention to try and enter into an agreeable DMP with Idem starting off a little higher than my previous amount while i apply for a SAR from M&S.
My credit file shows a respectable score rating of 945.

Muchas Gracias
La Rev.

[Diana M]

Re: Monetary Judgement threat. ( M&S IDEM Compass Abbey Solicitors )

i'm only guessing that the T&C came with the application form or credit agreement form. None of which i still retain

Or there's a third possibility in that the Ts & Cs weren't there when you signed the agreement but sent to you subsequently when the card (plastic) was issued which would cause them enforcement problems.

Or possibly you didn't retain the Ts & Cs because you never received them in the first place

Di

[MIKE770]

Re: Monetary Judgement threat. ( M&S IDEM Compass Abbey Solicitors )

basically would mean that T&Cs not present at time of inception, would cause them big problems?

[Diana M]

Re: Monetary Judgement threat. ( M&S IDEM Compass Abbey Solicitors )

basically would mean that T&Cs not present at time of inception, would cause them big problems?

Well that was the view taken by DDJ Grant in the case of MKDP LLP v Diana Mayhew (me again ) in Liverpool County Court when he dismissed the claim against me.

I'll quote some (but not all) relevant paragraphs from the judgement :

11. She tells me that she opened the post and there amongst the post was an application which she was invited to sign and return to obtain a Barclaycard. She had not previously applied for an application form. I am told that she is not only sure but more than sure that there was only the application form in the original envelope which she was able to describe to me, namely (i) it was a window style envelope, (ii) it contained the priority application form which Ms Mayhew exhibits at page 29, and there was a reply envelope. There was nothing more. There was certainly not annexed to it anything which related to terms and conditions.


12. It is not entirely clear from a contractual point of view what this document was intended to represent. Was it a request by Ms Mayhew for a card? Well, looking at the matter as I do, disregarding the information on the left hand side which was of a personal nature, on the right hand side it says:
“Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act”
Signed by this lady on the 10th December which says:
“This is a credit agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Sign only if you want to be legally bound by it. Once you have signed this agreement you have for a short time the right to cancel it.”


13. And then it goes on:
“Exact details of how and when you can do this will be sent to you by post.”


14. Was there annexed to it and can I read into it that there was the necessary requirements which were set out within the Consumer Credit Act? Well, looking at Ms Mayhew’s recollection, the left hand side at the top is the address, her name, her address which she said was in the window envelope. She says that the document which was in it which she remembers not only was it not folded over, but it was folded over three times. And that is what she signed.


16. Ms Mayhew was entitled to know what she was signing, the terms and conditions that she was signing, before the contract was concluded and I refer in particular to the Schedule 5, Schedule 6 of the Consumer Credit Act which sets out prior to the agreement being concluded the issues as to the amount of credit, the credit limit, the rates of interest, the repayment, and the like.


17. I cannot recall what was in an envelope 14 years ago and I certainly do not keep paperwork for that long. Ms Mayhew says she does. In support of her evidence she says that she was at that particular time someone who almost had a photographic memory and was able to describe to me her kitchen where she was when she signed the particular agreement.


18. In support of that she refers to her professional qualifications and experience that since 1960 she had been a journalist and because of her training she makes a note of everything, she is trained to do so. She gave me examples of working with the Daily Mail, working with the BBC, her good memory both as to conversation, making mental notes of the surrounding and used the words:
“It’s in my DNA.”
Because, as she says, within her journalistic experience one day she might be asked to confirm a particular interview quote which was made. She is trained for remembering detail.


23. The impression I have is that Ms Mayhew is not seeking to avoid a debt. She is seeking to draw to the court’s attention the circumstances back in 2001. This lady is a professional person with a professional training in respect of the importance of documents. She keeps everything and she says to me, and I accept it, that at that time all that was provided was the application form.


25. It seems to me that this is one where I am able and I am prepared to accept the evidence given fully, accurately, robustly and sincerely by Ms Mayhew and on that basis I do not find that the agreement at 2001 complies with the Consumer Credit Act and without that the agreement, as I understand it, is not enforceable.


28. So I think so far as the matter is concerned it is claim dismissed.

Di

[pt2537]

Re: Monetary Judgement threat. ( M&S IDEM Compass Abbey Solicitors )

Same sort of issues that were dealt with in Wegmuller too. I blogged about the case which can be found here https://paulatwatsonssolicitors.word...d-v-wegmuller/

[Amethyst]

Re: Monetary Judgement threat. ( M&S IDEM Compass Abbey Solicitors )

Fascinating. However does anyone think there is a bonafide argument that the terms were not provided at the point the agreement was signed in THIS specific case?

From the documents provide it would appear the terms were on a separate leaflet ( this is they http://legalbeagles.info/forums/show...895#post739895 )so it would be a case of arguing those terms were not available at the time of making the agreement.

The signed agreement section is a 'tear here' sheet so would presumably have been attached to a marketing leaflet originally.... whether that included that sheet of terms with the four columns either side is unknown,, seems unlikely in that format, but seems quite likely the signature page was attached to terms on the reverse or within the leaflet. Without a copy of the exact original it's going to be very difficult to know.

Whichever way it is not an easy argument for someone who doesn't have a photographic memory or a habit of keeping everything that falls through the letterbox.

[Diana M]

Re: Monetary Judgement threat. ( M&S IDEM Compass Abbey Solicitors )

Fascinating . . .

Whichever way it is not an easy argument for someone who doesn't have a photographic memory or a habit of keeping everything that falls through the letterbox.

I assume your statement is aimed directly at me so I'll respond.

I never said it would be easy to argue in court. In fact most LIPs would find any legal argument hard to argue in court.

But that shouldn't deter people from being informed of their statutory rights under the Consumer Credit Act and DDJ Grant explained them clearly in his judgment. Quoting a judge gives gravitas to what I was saying/posting informally.

Should the need arise a Defendant can always seek legal representation particularly if a claim has high value (this debt is over £7k).

There is no court claim at present but the OP believes that they were advised by a firm of solicitors that their credit agreement was unenforceable (unless I've perhaps misunderstood) ) and whether they were advised that or not they are considering their next steps including if they should enter into a repayment arrangement or not.

I find when talking to potential clients they don't often realise the significance of something they remember (or the fact that they don't remember may signify that what's being stated by the Claimant didn't actually happen) until it's pointed out to them.

Di

[Reverandbill]

Re: Monetary Judgement threat. ( M&S IDEM Compass Abbey Solicitors )

Hi All, on this very wet and dull morning. [MENTION=6]Amethyst[/MENTION] [MENTION=87380]Diana M[/MENTION] [MENTION=3599]MIKE770[/MENTION] [MENTION=551]pt2537[/MENTION], sorry i've not replied earlier to your latest replies to my post as i have been away attending my flock so to say. Due to the nature of my work i cannot afford to have any CCJ'S labeled against me. After giving some in-depth thought to your recent replies over the CCA i received back from Idem and the fact that i have not as yet received my requested paper work from ABBEY i have decided to try and negotiate a suitable DMP with Idem when they next contact me. If before then i do get my Abbey file and it shows me why in their opinion my M&S debt is unenforceable then i will contest this with Idem.
Amethyst i will send you shortly an email this is the last letter i got from Abbey before they closed my file.

Kind Regards
Reverandbill

[Amethyst]

Re: Monetary Judgement threat. ( M&S IDEM Compass Abbey Solicitors )

Morning Rev, Yes it's a quite miserable day, but on the positive side, makes me feel better that I'm stuck indoors anyway

I'll check my email shortly xxx