Bluebell's Debt Thread & Hardship Claim

[Kafka]

Re: Bluebell's Debt Thread & Hardship Claim

It all seems such a long time ago EXC but we had that thread on hardship when we were putting together the original form of the letter - which did work for a few claimants even after the stay.

As far as I can remember also the important thing is to show that the hardship was worsened by or was caused by the charges. If you were just in a bad financial position before the charges that would not be sufficient argument . However the contra argument would be that say you were on low income and could not afford to repay the OD caused mainly by charges then surely your situation would very quickly become unrecoverable.

From everything I see I think you need to show that the specific hardship is CAUSED by the charges, such that the position would not exist if it were not for them. If there is any doubt about this then it is very easy for the banks and courts to just dismiss the Claimant as a loser who had it coming. This is precisely why nothing has been done to define hardship in any measurable way, so that it is hard to show that the case is genuine, or that the the bank has failed in an implied duty of care.

[Kafka]

Re: Bluebell's Debt Thread & Hardship Claim

Also just another thought - say in bluebells case we get a letter to pass on to the FOS it may be worth pushing hard as the banks seem to have had plenty of time to sort this out. Also a copy to banking code standard board may be interesting.

The fact that the banks have not sorted out this out yet is a weapon in our favour, as they are still hiding behind the claim that hardship is not defined. The very fact that this is still the case after 9 months is scandalous when the FSA is claiming that these cases are being dealt with in volume, when there's not even agreement on what constitutes hardship.

I wonder if we should be looking at picking a couple of the clearest and most severe cases as high-profile test cases to have current in the system and the press (if appropriate), all ready for the CMC. It would be lovely to have this injustice centre stage to use as we see fit.

I don't normally go for such a confrontational approach, but perhaps these claimants have nothing left to lose and in truth, reasonable debate has achieved almost nothing so we are left with few options.

[EXC]

Re: Bluebell's Debt Thread & Hardship Claim

Okay - could we seperate the hardship charges reclaim thread for Bluebell from the rest of the debts being worked on with her. Might make things easier to follow ?

Ok Ame lets continue the non Bluebell discussion here: Hardship cases - Page 2 - Legal Beagles

[Amethyst]

Re: Bluebell's Debt Thread & Hardship Claim

Bluebell - heres what I posted in previous posts. Just to make it easier for you.


Fabulous. If you get another claim form - don't phone the claimant for advice !

Right next thing to do is your defence/admission.

Soooooooooooo.... what info do you have - do you actually owe the whole lot or are there spurious charges on it.

If we do a simple admission we'll do an admission with a request for time to pay etc and sumbit your I/E form. So it should end up with a CCJ (rubber stamping no attendance needed) for installment payments of £1 a month etc what ever your I/E shows you can afford. So please don't worry.

Also what communication did you have with moorcroft over it - did you have installments etc worked out with them that you paid - if there was some arrangement then we can try say the claim shouldnt have been bought and get the court fees off. So any letters to them/from them re the outstanding balance would help.

Just let me know as much as poss and then we can do the next bit and thats that one sorted

You have another 10 days to get this in now
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Next job....

council tax and water.....whats the situation on those two ?

Any rent arrears ?


S'ok got it

Council tax arrears 1,082.00 Fuel debts: Gas : Electricity 800.00 : Water 725.00

Whats the position on these communications wise with Co Tax and Utilities ?
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I tried to appeal on the grounds of hardship (took along paperwork to support etc), but my words fell on deaf ears and the judge decided all stays should remain.

Have you got that paperwork you can upload on to here? Just as a starting point. Think then EXC and Scoobs thought is to appeal directly to the bank for determination as a hardship case to try and bypass the stay. But the info on what happened already will help with that.

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Petrol 300.00

this is a pain in the bum - so this is work related expenses and your OH gets what kind of % of this back in his pay the following month ? We need to edit the I/E and show that % as a credit which should give you a small credit to show to offer monthly payments.




1. lloyds cc 6,893.00
2. Egg CC (Moorcroft) 1,600.00
4 M&S (Moorcroft) 635.00
6. Frasercard (fredrikson) 289.00
7. Alliance & Leicester OD 250.00
8. Orange (Nelsons sols) - 200.00
10. Lloyds TSB OD 2,200.00 ( THIS WILL GET COVERED BY CHARGES SO DONT WORRY ON IT - what year approx did you open this account out of interest )


Right - do you still have any cards that you are spending on ?

Also I know you have done CCA requests etc on a number of these so let me know where each one stands currently.


Alsoooooooooo....which bank accounts your OH's pay go into now ?
and are his debts (£20k??) included in the IE


(I'll shut up for a bit now let you answer the last few posts)

[Bluebell]

Re: Bluebell's Debt Thread & Hardship Claim

My head is spinning a bit now. Thank you for posting things so clearly Amethyst. I'll go back and re-read the other posts after I've answered everything!!

Right: I believe I in fact owe the whole £135. I've spoken to Moorcroft a couple of times and never got as far as being able to work out a payment plan. They always refused to accept instalments. I sent them a letter on the 11th February (for which I've LOST the PO receipt!) quoting te CCCS number, enclosing budget sheet, asking for everything to be frozen for 6 months until I was in a position to pay something. I didnt receive a reply - or any notice that they were sending it to Nelsons (aren't they supposed to do that?). I do have copies of letters I sent/received if that is useful to post.
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Council tax: I rang and spoke to someone who said to send a letter with an offer of payment - I've tried to research the lowest figure/longest timescale but haven't got far...I've always been told the maximum is a year which we can't manage. Every time I make an arrangement I break it as I just can't afford it PLUS the current payments.
Water: The last time I spoke to them was January - My plan was to write with a payment plan - (or to tell them I can't pay anything) now that we have moved.
Electricity: I last spoke to them about 4 months ago when we made an arrangement to have a rip off key meter installed. paying off £5 p/w. We cannot have a key meter in our current house luckily so I have to write to them with an offer too. The old bill was in my name - the current one is in my partner's name.
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About paperwork do you mean the documents such as the skeleton argument, supporting documents etc for my application? I'll attach them here once I have copied them.
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the petrol issue is a bit confusing. Last month he spent approximately £300 on petrol. He only got back £180 but that was for the previous month (he's paid at a rate of 11p p/mile) - it does work out that he gets back quite a bit less than he spends too because the car is so uneconomical. There is something I missed on the sheet. My OHs work loaned him £500 to buy a car and he's paying it back at £100/month (!!) So his salary is actually £1463, plus petrol expenses for last month at £182 and minus the £100 for the car it comes to £1545. I've just interrogated him and apparently last month he actually spent about £210 on petrol (about £30 loss). Unfortunately this month he'll have spent about £390 on petrol which has to come out of last month's salary. (is that confusing?!) His salary is paid into a Barclays basic account - which was opened just before he started the new job in Feb.

Neither of us use any cards,

1. lloyds cc 6,893.00 - they wrote to me saying they were reinstating interest and charges.
2. Egg CC (Moorcroft) 1,600.00 - I wrote to them with CCA request - received on line form back (as per thread on CAG) - fredrikson have since sent demands for payment.
4 M&S (Moorcroft) 635.00 - CCA request sent to Moorcroft who are referring back to M&S as cannot find CCA.
6. Frasercard (fredrikson) 289.00 - they have agreed to accept £5/month
7. Alliance & Leicester OD 250.00 - account closed - claim was stayed
8. Orange (Nelsons sols) - 200.00
10. Lloyds TSB OD 2,200.00 - As of beginning of May they were going to drop overdraft limit. I have to write to them with income/exp (AGAIN!) I stupidly spent hours on the phone to their various collections departments and got nowhere.

I didn't include any of G's debts in the budget...so I'll list them here. I was working on guesstimates and we hadn't really sat down and talked about it. Things are a bit different to what I thought.

Northern Rock 12,000 letter from sols in last couple of weeks asking for payment
EPF: 11,000 letter from sols in last couple of weeks asking for payment
HSBC: 16,000 - haven't heard from them for a while
Cahoot: 1,560 OD - letter received from BCW although letters have been sent about account charges (amounting to about the same as the outstanding OD)
I'm a bit shocked now.
So it all comes to just under £60,000 I'm sorry I got it wrong and if it is all too much to hope to deal with now.

[Amethyst]

Re: Bluebell's Debt Thread & Hardship Claim

Good I'm glad you have sat down together and got it all down. It is a shock and its hard to face up to, but you need to get things straight for when baby comes. Plus the fact his income has to cover his debts too. So they have to go on your IE sheet. When you spoke to CCCS did you discuss his debt s with them as well ?

Okay more questions sorry.......... EPF and Northern Rock - Loans? In OH's sole name ? and your debts are in your name only ?

Don't get stressed about it, please hun, for the baby, its only money and theres more important things. You are up to date on your rent and your utilities wont be cut off with baby on the way.

Just bear with me while I talk to a couple peeps. xxx

[Mochamoos]

Re: Bluebell's Debt Thread & Hardship Claim

Im not here to offer any advice just a little support. As Ame said don't get stressed out (easier said than done) at the end of the day it is just money. As long as you and the baby are fine that's all that matters.

:kiss:

[Bluebell]

Re: Bluebell's Debt Thread & Hardship Claim

Thanks Amethyst and Mochamoo! I'm so pleased we're actually facing up to it now! I was beginning to go a bit panicky but you're right - I need to keep relaxed for the baby.

All the debts I listed on the spreadsheet are in my name except council tax which is in both. When I spoke to CCCS I thought G's debts came to about 20,000 and actually I wasn't particularly specific about anything to do with him, but they still recommended bankruptcy - I think due to the fact that we're only just breaking even.

EPF and Northern Rock are just in my OHs name. EPF is a loan that was secured on his house, Northern Rock is an unsecured loan.

Writing it all down helps so much - even though I may not be getting anywhere with writing to creditors etc it's really good to share it.

I am very lucky to have found you guys!!

[EXC]

Re: Bluebell's Debt Thread & Hardship Claim

I still need more of Bluebell's info to get the letter to Lloyds done, namely:

Date and amount of original claim.
Current claim amount.
Dates and summary of all correspondence to date.
Court claim details.

As we have her I&E we could simply write without the above details asking for hardship recognition but IMO it would be better to include everything.

Wadaya think Ame?

[Amethyst]

Re: Bluebell's Debt Thread & Hardship Claim

I'll look up the info on her old thread off CAG.

Also her I/E does need the other debts added on to it.

The EPF loan was secured on her partners house, which has been repossessed - £11k. Is this now a unsecured loan (being nothing to secure it on) or should it have been paid from the repossession ? Sorry not sure how that works.

[Amethyst]

Re: Bluebell's Debt Thread & Hardship Claim

Claim for £4,458.76 inc. CI ( Bluebell do you have your spreadhseet for this?)

They appear to have paid £675 as a GOGW (turned it down as part payment but they didnt remove from account so it was spent)

crystalcag vs Lloyds tsb
#7EX02221 Exeter
£4,506.88 (inc cont. int)
served 4th July 2007



Am thinking, if she is looking at bankruptcy could she get this refund (hopefully) from Lloyds and pay the overdraft at lloyds (£2200) off and buy stuff for baby - BEFORE that happens ? or will it get offset over to the Lloyds credit card. ( tho thinking if there were no T&C's then theres no T&C giving them the right to offset to other products)

[scottishlass]

Re: Bluebell's Debt Thread & Hardship Claim

Ame the secured loan should have been paid from the repossession, I know in my case the mortgage was paid first then the secured loan,but there might not have been enough equity to do so. Then you get whatever is left at the end of all costs etc.

Not sure if that helps, just thought I would mention it as have been there.

[Amethyst]

Re: Bluebell's Debt Thread & Hardship Claim

Thanks hunny xx Sounds like there wasn't enough equity to cover the secured EPF loan. So they still chasing and its still outstanding. Oh well worth a think tho wasnt it.

[Amethyst]

Re: Bluebell's Debt Thread & Hardship Claim

Overview of Bluebells position

Income - Monthly £1500 (will increase with arrival of new baby - but of course outgoings will increase the same)

No assets

Essential Outgoings (Rent, water, gas, electric, council tax/food etc) £1428



Unsecured Debt -

1. lloyds cc 6,893.00
2. Egg CC (Moorcroft) 1,600.00 -
3: Vets 740
4 M&S (Moorcroft) 635.00
6. Frasercard (fredrikson) 289.00
7. Alliance & Leicester OD 250.00 -
8. Orange (Nelsons sols) - 200.00
9: Vets 166
10. Lloyds TSB OD 2,200.00
11. Northern Rock 12,000
12. EPF: 11,000
13. HSBC: 16,000
14. Cahoot: 1,560 OD

TOTAL £53,533

[Bluebell]

Re: Bluebell's Debt Thread & Hardship Claim

I'm sorry I havent been able to come on line before now.

Yes there wasn't enough left over to pay the loan - Northern Rock recently sent a letter (2nd April) suggesting that my OH got in touch to discuss payment proposals or to make an offer of payment of a lump sum as full and final settlement. I'm not sure if they meant a reduced figure but my OH hasn't responded.

I'm attaching my charges spreadsheet (have taken out personal details etc) It has both 8% and contractual interest sheets.

I've also attached a copy of the Part C statement and will attach the skeleton and anything else later this evening (for some reason I can't find the original so will have to scan them).

I should be able to give you info about all correspondence to date but I'm really sorry the file is in a b***** packing box. I'll track it down and post all the info tomorrow. Correspondence about the claim ground to a halt after the application to lift the stay.

Is there anything else EXC that I need to post that might be useful?

Oh my god the total of our debt is absolutely huge. I'll just repeat the mantra "it's only money".

Amethyst thank you for posting all the relevant info. My brain is really not working at the moment and it would have taken me days to track down all the info!!