Lowell / Vanquis Court Claim

[finlander]

My wife had a Vanquis account since 18/05/06. She cannot remember how she applied whether online or via an advert. Anyway we cca’d them about 3 years ago and all they sent was a set of terms and conds but with no signature[ or tick box. No name or address on it. I wrote to them saying it’s not good enough and that the account was now in dispute. We had the usual threatening phone calls etc but haven’t heard anything for about 7 months. Today I received a summons from MCOL stating we are being summoned to court.

The POCof claim summarised are
1. claiming in respect of an agreement under the CCA 1974 failed to maintain payments etc
2.Debt was legally assigned to Lowell’s by Vanquis
3 interest
Date of issue is 12 Jun 2013.

This is all from Dryden’s sol.................

I do still have the original CCA they sent and it certainly isn’t a computer screenshot. More like the leaflet they used to send....

Some advice would be grateful. What to do next....I’m a bit disappointed as I hoped all this was behind us and we have managed to get back on our feet.

The summons has all been acknowledged etc and AQ filled out.


However I have had absolutely no real info from them, including no CCA.

I then received my SAR from Vanquis and after looking through it I realise that I have a counter claim against them for penalty charges, late payment etc that with the compound interest comes to £2500 ..Which is more than we owe them!


Hi, ok some important questions and some help please. It all went quiet for a while after I was told it was being sent to my local court. I haven’t filed a counter claim yet as I was told by the bulk court to do nothing until I heard from my local court.

That was about a month ago. Anyway today a lot of papers arrive from the Chelmsford county court. They state that the hearing will be on the 19th December at the small claims court.

ive had a good look through all the paper work

this seems to be a right dogs breakfast by them.

There is still no CCA. the internet bit on vaquis SAR states 'internet activation' and is dated the 18/06/2006.
but lowells statements state CCA 'signed' 15/05/2006.
that doesn sound like an internet application to me.

However all in got to my original CCa requestinn 2009 is a copy of their t&c's so technically they are still in default of that so shouldnt be taking me to court anyway.

Also there is no default notces from either lowells or vanquis in the SAR's despite both claiming that they include all correspondence.

Lastly theaccount shows quite a few penalty charges which when entered into the CI calcualtorsheet shows that if it is vali till the ate he account sold
they owe me £600 quid and if valid till the date of the court summons than its £2500. the balance being sought is £2100.

Right the thing I need help with is the following.

1.What form do I use to send to the court for a counter claim and if claiming for compound interest am I claiming for restitution?
2.If so any idea where I could find particulars of claim for that. They are just penalty charges (late payment etc) pretty standard and I have done the CI sheet.
3. I take it I agree to mediation? But also I would like to get the counterclaim in before that starts as it will give me a bit more leverage
4.What documents do I have to send them? All I have is the SAR they sent me and the original letters asking for the account to be suspended due to financial hardship (wife lost job) all ignored. Then the CCA request then the debt not acknowledged letter. All pretty much ignored. Only one answered was the CCA request with photocopy of t&c's.
5.Can I ask for disclosure order from the judge as they still haven’t sent a CCA even with the SAR request and I still have never seen one. If so what form do I use?
6. Would it be better to write to Dryden’s and inform them of my intention to counter claim and ask them to agree a stay and amendment of defence bearing in mind the lack of information was their fault.( Hoping they will run away)


Please help as the deadline is now approaching

[CleverClogs]

Re: help posted this in the wrong thread originally

All I have is the SAR they sent me and the original letters asking for the account to be suspended due to financial hardship (wife lost job) all ignored.

When was that sent?

Then the CCA request then the debt not acknowledged letter.

Again, when was that sent?

Only one answered was the CCA request with photocopy of t&c's.

What is the date of the terms and conditions?

[finlander]

Re: help posted this in the wrong thread originally

the card was taken out in 2006

the CCa request was 2009 and a rather pathetic one sided t&c's came back with no date on them.

The debt was not acknowledged about 2 months after the CCA request.

Nothing heard from Vanquis etc apart from the usual threatening phone calls etc from them and various DCA's but no paperwork etc.

The drydens appear out of the blue with a money claim summons in august.

I acknowledge that and file this defence.':

DEFENCE

1. It is admitted that I the defendant has held an account with Vanquis Bank in the past but will contend that this account is in dispute.


2. On the 19th August 2009 the defendant made a request to Vanquis Bank under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, sections 77−79, to see a copy of any credit agreement and a statement of account. Vanquis Bank did not supply a copy of the agreement or a statement of account as required by law. They have, as of this date, still not supplied a copy of the agreement or a statement of account.

3. On the 16th June 2013 I requested information pertaining to this claim by way of a CPR 31.14 request. The claimant has declined to respond, or even acknowledge the request, within the deadline set.

4. Without clarification of the claimants claim, the defendant is extremely disadvantaged and the claimants claim appears to be without merit. The defendant asks to be allowed to submit a complete defence should the claimant provide copies of the original documents he will rely on.

5. The particulars of claim are vague and unsubstantiated with regards to the Defendant owing any monies to the Claimant and the Claimant is put to strict proof to

a. show how the Defendant has entered into an agreement or contract with the Claimant; and
b. show how the Defendant has reached the amount claimed for and
c. show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim

6. As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed.

7. Furthermore, if the Claimant is an assignee of a debt, it is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions of Section 136 and 196 of the Law of Property Act 1925 and Section 82 (a) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

8. The claimant has failed to comply with sections 111 AND 1V of the pre action conduct "practice directions". The Claimant has failed to even acknowledge any request made by myself, via recorded delivery, regarding disclosure of documents in order that I may plead effectively.

9. By reason of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.

10. For avoidance of doubt, the defendant is unable to plead effectively or at all to the particulars of claim. Without further clarification and disclosure.
Statement of Truth

I believe that the facts stated in this Defence of claim to be true.


then I SAR lowells and vanquis.... lowells say 'not telling you' I threaten them and then i get a reply

there is no CCA from the latest sar from either of them. just some call logs satements of how the account was run and contact logs. So I send Drydens a disclosure request for the docs in their POC.

they are
1. credit agreement
2. deed of assignment
3statement of account
4. defualt notice.

Drydens ignore me.

Al goes quiet then this week a notice that its been allocated to local court, name of the judge , hearing date is 19/12/2013 and standard disclosure.

But I still don't have anything from them and I can't write up a detailed arguement without some sort of CCA to look at!

What can I do?

[finlander]

Re: help posted this in the wrong thread originally

the letters asking to suspend account were in the 2 months prior to the first CCA request in 2009... they were all ignored ..all 3 of them..and they didnt send their copies with the SAR request so I assume they will deny them.

[finlander]

Re: help posted this in the wrong thread originally

so in summary;-

• 1st letter after a miscarriage and losing job due to company not empolying mothers says please help me financial hardship - ignored
• 2nd letter... please help- ignored
• 3rd letter - getting angry now please help - ignored
• cca request
• t&c's come back. one sided no room for signature, no details just one side
• debt not acknowledge
• angry phone calls, dcas etc...the quiet
• august this year drydens(actinng for lowells) mcol received
• acknowledged service
• filed embarressed defence as above
• SAR to Lowell and vanquis
• sar arrives NO CCA still.. NO default notice, no deed of assignment..just call logs and statement
• discloure request to drydens...no answer
• vanquis statements show £250 odd quid penalty charges that when entered in CI calculator say they are now worth £2500 if till the court date £600 if until 2009 when the account was suspended.
• speak to MCOL about counter claim told to wait until judge allocated and ask him
• this month small claims court allocated hearing on the 19th December standard disclosure ordered

I can't lose this surely ?

[CleverClogs]

Re: help posted this in the wrong thread originally

The embarrassed defence bothers me, when a better defence could have made more effective use of the failure by both the original creditor and the claimant to comply with your s.78 request.

[charitynjw]

Re: help posted this in the wrong thread originally

If you have SAR'd them & requested, amongst other things, specific documents, their Data Controllers are obliged to either send them to you, or give good reason why they cannot do so.
If it were me I would send another message (email, or land mail with proof of postage), giving them a short time frame in which to comply or risk a complaint to the ICO.
http://www.ico.org.uk/complaints/getting

[finlander]

Re: Lowell / Vanquis Court Claim

I put the defence in because I was working on the principles of;

1. don't deny that we had an account as that will just wind the judge up
2. it puts them to the proof that the document egver existed and allows the judge to see the laughable amount of paperwork provided
3. i didnt want lowells, who lets face it seem to be pretty famous for it, fabricating a internet application until I had their account log showing it wasn't an internet application. bearing in mind the date the card was taken out an internet application would have avoided the need for a written CCA. Now their log seems to prove that it wasn't internet.We knew that anyway as it was an application that was a magazine flyer type. A written CCA is a must in those circs... I am right there I hope.

Ive agreed to tyhe mediation and sent the form off.


How do I now apply to the court for a counter claim and disclosure?...is it via the N form and how much is the fee?

I dont really care about the money side I'm just hoping we will get them to naff off

Geoff

[finlander]

Re: Lowell / Vanquis Court Claim

any help?

[Amethyst]

Re: Lowell / Vanquis Court Claim

Morning

The internet activation on the 18/6 could that be where you had received the card and set up online account management / activated the card ? I don't know how Vanquis worked but some of my old cards came with a pin number type thing seperate and I had to ring up to activate the card when I'd received both before using it. So you applied on 15/5 via the magazine, and had received card and activated it on 15/5. I don't know if that is the case but may jog your memory if it was.

Also you mention ''this month small claims court allocated hearing on the 19th December standard disclosure ordered'' and that you have asked for disclosure of the docs in the POC - so I'd say that was covered.

Counterclaim is usually done at time of entering defence. As I can see with the embarassed type defence you have entered until you have documents to enable you to amend your defence you are unable to counterclaim - they have to send your CCA to be able to enforce the debt. However you are now aware which account they are claiming against you for so you could enter a defence and counterclaim with that knowledge, you'd have to argue the lack of CCA means they can't enforce the debt alongside entering your counterclaim for charges (and PPI?) - which is tricky if you are denying the CCA exists/debt exists. Usually rather than entering an 'embarrased' defence you'd ask to court to extend defence date until they supply documents enabling you to defend / counterclaim in full knowledge of the debt.

You mention penalty charges you want to defend/counterclaim - are these all over £12 ?

[finlander]

Re: Lowell / Vanquis Court Claim

Hi ,

Thanks for that.

so in summary are we saying

1. No point in counter claiming if we are saying the agreement in unenforcable?
2. without a signed agreement then this account is unenforcable? bearing in mind its date and that MRs F is 100% sure it wasnt an online application.
3. I can apply for a stay until; all documents are supplied and if they are not ask for a strike out?
4. Yes I think they are all about £12. Is that reclaimable?

Lastly in order to apply for that stay is there a form to use and how much does it cost?

Cheers

Geoff

[finlander]

Re: Lowell / Vanquis Court Claim

sorry last point.

cannot I not argue that my primary defence is that this agreement is unenforcable. However if the court rule it is then it is regulated by law and the charges imposed on this account therefore become penalty chegres so they must be refunded? therefore it becomes a no win wituation for vanquis?

Geoff

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Lowell / Vanquis Court Claim

so in summary are we saying

1. No point in counter claiming if we are saying the agreement in unenforcable?
2. without a signed agreement then this account is unenforcable? bearing in mind its date and that MRs F is 100% sure it wasnt an online application.
3. I can apply for a stay until; all documents are supplied and if they are not ask for a strike out?
4. Yes I think they are all about £12. Is that reclaimable?

cannot I not argue that my primary defence is that this agreement is unenforcable. However if the court rule it is then it is regulated by law and the charges imposed on this account therefore become penalty chegres so they must be refunded? therefore it becomes a no win wituation for vanquis?

You can't just argue that the agreement is unenforceable without being specific. In Carey vs HSBC it was stated that a reconstituted agreement would satisfy the requirements of s.77-79.

Basically you would have to make a positive assertion that you either didn't sign an agreement, or that the agreement you signed did not have all the prescribed terms. This could be because it was short application form, an advert, etc. but it's up to you to state the facts and reasons why you think you didn't sign one or it didn't have all the terms. You may want to look at this, written by our very own PT2537 :yo: http://paulatwatsonssolicitors.wordp...scribed-terms/

As you applied in 2006, are you positive it wasn't an internet application? If so, you must remember how you applied. :confused2:

[finlander]

Re: Lowell / Vanquis Court Claim

You can't just argue that the agreement is unenforceable without being specific. In Carey vs HSBC it was stated that a reconstituted agreement would satisfy the requirements of s.77-79.

Basically you would have to make a positive assertion that you either didn't sign an agreement, or that the agreement you signed did not have all the prescribed terms. This could be because it was short application form, an advert, etc. but it's up to you to state the facts and reasons why you think you didn't sign one or it didn't have all the terms. You may want to look at this, written by our very own PT2537 :yo: http://paulatwatsonssolicitors.wordp...scribed-terms/

As you applied in 2006, are you positive it wasn't an internet application? If so, you must remember how you applied. :confused2:

Ok...so what do I do when I have nothing from them?...all I have is sheet...one side...with T&c's on them...

I give up..just gonna work something out and pay... No one seems to answer any of my questions...

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Lowell / Vanquis Court Claim

Ok...so what do I do when I have nothing from them?...all I have is sheet...one side...with T&c's on them...

I give up..just gonna work something out and pay... No one seems to answer any of my questions...

From posts above, I can see you have ALREADY submitted a defence. What questions would you like to have answered?