Hi, just joined

[charitynjw]

Re: Hi, just joined

A SAR will get you any info held in a relevant filing system by the Data Controller which can identify you as a living person (unless the info is exempt for some qualifying reason).

It does not cover, for instance, T&C's, or general info relating to a product or service.

[gmleo]

Re: Hi, just joined

Slightly off topic with the main CCJ debt.
I've found faults with my Egg card contract.
I requested that Egg send me an original "true copy" of my CCA a while back, which they kindly did, minus the date, the signature box, my signature and the date of signature of course.
They sent along a reconstituted T&C to accompany it.
I still have the original contract (my own unsigned copy) and these two CCA's do not match.
Different APR % all over the document.

Original Egg CCA states

3. Limit. We will tell you from time to time the Approved Limit we have set, and if different the individual Limit which you have chosen for the Account.

We will charge interest
4.1 - on Purchases put on the Account until 1 April 2005 at a monthly rate of 0% fixed until 1 April 2005, and thereafter at a monthly rate of 1.167 (percentage % missing), (13.2% APR);
- on Transferred Balances put on the Account until 1 June 2005 at a monthly rate of 0% fixed until June 2005, and thereafter at a monthly rate of 1.167% (13.2% APR); and otherwise
- at a monthly rate of 1.167%, (14.9% APR).
4.2 Unless you are an existing customer, we charge a handling fee of 2% of the amount of each Cash Advance (minimum fee £2). The rate for Cash Advanced is 1.240, (18.3% APR).

Now, compare that to the "true copy" they have sent me from Canada Square Operations, formerly known as Egg Banking plc.

3. Limit. We will tell you from time to time the Approved Limit we have set, and if different the individual Limit which you have chosen for the Account. We will charge interest
4.1 - on Purchases put on the Account until 1 April 2005 at a monthly rate of 0% fixed until 1 April 2005, and thereafter at a monthly rate of 1.093%, (13.2% APR);
- on Transferred Balances put on the Account until 1 June 2005 at a monthly rate of 0% fixed until June 2005, and thereafter at a monthly rate of 1.093% (13.2% APR); and otherwise
- at a monthly rate of 1.093%, (14.9% APR).
4.2 Unless you are an existing customer, we charge a handling fee of 2% of the amount of each Cash Advance (minimum fee £2). The rate for Cash Advanced is 1.240, (16.3% APR).

They have sent a copy of the original T&C's, the original goes up to 19.2 Complaints.
They also included a recent copy of T&C's which goes up to 23. Complaints.
The first thing that's different in the newest version of the T&Cs is item 1 is now labelled as "Credit Limit", where as on the original it appears as item 3 and labelled "Limit".
:beagle:

[CleverClogs]

Re: Hi, just joined

Then they plainly have not complied with your s.78 request.

[charitynjw]

Re: Hi, just joined

Slightly off topic with the main CCJ debt.
I've found faults with my Egg card contract.
I requested that Egg send me an original "true copy" of my CCA a while back, which they kindly did, minus the date, the signature box, my signature and the date of signature of course.
They sent along a reconstituted T&C to accompany it.
I still have the original contract (my own unsigned copy) and these two CCA's do not match.
Different APR % all over the document.

Original Egg CCA states


Now, compare that to the "true copy" they have sent me from Canada Square Operations, formerly known as Egg Banking plc.


They have sent a copy of the original T&C's, the original goes up to 19.2 Complaints.
They also included a recent copy of T&C's which goes up to 23. Complaints.
The first thing that's different in the newest version of the T&Cs is item 1 is now labelled as "Credit Limit", where as on the original it appears as item 3 and labelled "Limit".
:beagle:

A court might just ask why, since you had the original documents, did you request a s78 copy?

Other than to avoid the debt, of course.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Hi, just joined

A court might just ask why, since you had the original documents, did you request a s78 copy?

Other than to avoid the debt, of course.

Indeed, but the law is quite plain on this matter - until they do comply with the s78 request, the debt remains impossible to enforce.

It is not open for a court to declare the defendant to be a devious and dirty debt dodger who must pay up in full.

[gmleo]

Re: Hi, just joined

Dirty debt dodger, thanks!
I have a pile of letters still unopened at least 15 inches high from 2008 to 2011 from DCA's and banks.
It was only after I sent the s78 request that I found the original in a file.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Hi, just joined

FB.
That's the $50million question isn't it?
I have a brilliant argument that involves kidnapping the judge's wife and holding her to ransom until my CCJ is set aside.
Probably wont be a precedent though.
With all this jailing of people writing really good ideas on twitter and stuff like that, I best stop there
Only kidding your honor!

Indeed, people are now getting the police involved for posting something online, it's ridiculous! :mod: :mod: :mod:

In the real world, telling someone "I'll kill you" doesn't land you in jail, obviously if there were witnesses to the statement AND the poor sod winds up dead, you may be in trouble, but 99% of the time merely SAYING something is not an offence, as long as you don't DO IT! :thumb:

Perhaps that could be an argument for the judge FB?
This CCJ is not just affecting my credit rating, but it's affecting my career and hindering my future self development.
Second application I'll include a photo of his wife of course.

Very sound in principle, :grin: :grin: :grin: but in reality, not a legally valid argument.

The main arguments would be not having had the chance to defend due to not getting the claim forms and, had you had a chance to defend, having good prospects of winning the case. :thumb:

FB. I've edited the dates to include Opened dates on the credit card defaults, amounts, etc... as requested.

You & Celestine asked if I applied for the cards online or on paper.
I can't recall and it's bugging me.

Thanks for doing that, I shall take a look, it could make a difference. The reason being that there was a change in the law, whereby s.127 of the Consumer Credit Act was repealed with effect from April 2007, this section prevented the court from issuing an enforcement order unless the creditor could show there had been a properly executed agreement in place. This change is not retroactive, meaning any accounts opened before that happened are still subject to s.127. :grin:

127.(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under Section 65(1) if Section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under Section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner)

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...on/127/enacted

As for applying online, this is of more significance if you applied on or after January 2005, when the Consumer Credit (Electronic Communications) Regulations 2004 allowed the signature in the signature box to be replaced by a tick box.

If you applied online before 2005, then they should have sent you an agreement to sign. :thumb:

I'm thinking of sending SAR letters to the creditors/DCA's as my next step.
Is this kind of information usually included in a Subject Access Request?

The SAR is a request for all data held about you, you'd usually send one to get statements and other documents relating to your account. In theory it should also include a copy of your agreement, in practice they don't always send it. Terms are not regarded as personal data so they are not included. You can realistically only expect data for the last 6 years. Each SAR costs £10 + postage, if you have several creditors, it can add up. :wof: :wof: :wof: If you have more than one account with one creditor then you only need to send one SAR per company, unlike the CCA request where you need one for each account.

What sort of information are you hoping to get your hands on by sending SARs?

[CleverClogs]

Re: Hi, just joined

Dirty debt dodger, thanks!

You're welcome - I'd hoped you'd like the alliteration.

As far as I'm concerned, the Waksman judgement was mistaken; the requirement to supply a copy of an agreement was hardly novel and, if the lender wished to be repaid, then it damn well ought to have complied with the law.

I'd have thrown out all that "reconstituted twue copy" malarkey as being bad law at best and, at worse, a forgers' charter.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Hi, just joined

Credit Cards
MBNA - Arrow Global LLC £9,659.84 - Opened May 2004/ CCJ 17-01-2012
EGG - Lowell £6,383.28 - Opened October 2004/ Default date 01/05/2008
Nationwide - Mkdp Llp £5,065.13 - Opened February 2007 /Default date 13/11/2008 -11/01/2008
CITI Cards - 1st Credit Ltd £4,155.95 - Opened February 2007/ Default date 30/09/2008

Total Credit Cards £25,264.20

Banks
Abbey £1,518.86 - Default date 09/02/2008 (noddle)
Alliance & Leicester £1,289.75 - Default date 22/01/2008 (noddle)
Nationwide £785.97 - Default date 02/03/2011 (noddle)
First Direct £650.00 - In use

Total Banks £4,244.58

Misc
Screwfix /TA **** **** £438 - CCJ 19-01-2010
Total £29508.78

Screwfix was mistake, doing my ostrich thing at the time and didn't open the letter for a year.

As previously discussed, it may well be too late to do anything about the ones where they've already obtained judgment, unless you have solid arguments to have it set aside.

The 3 credit cards were taken out before April 2007 which is good news! :high5: With the Egg card, you may well have applied online as Egg was normally online, but if it was in October 2004, there would still have been a requirement for a signed agreement. :thumb:

Sadly, if the other 2 were applied for online, you'll struggle to argue unenforceability as they can just send you a printout of the terms you would have agreed to when you ticked the box. :sad:

The overdrafts are not subjected to a CCA request as such but they still have a duty to provide certain information. What's the current situation with them? Are they hassling you?

Default dates are all quite a long time ago, remind me again, have you been making payments after you defaulted? If not, they are getting very closed to SBd! :thumb:

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Hi, just joined

Slightly off topic with the main CCJ debt.
I've found faults with my Egg card contract.
I requested that Egg send me an original "true copy" of my CCA a while back, which they kindly did, minus the date, the signature box, my signature and the date of signature of course.
They sent along a reconstituted T&C to accompany it.
I still have the original contract (my own unsigned copy) and these two CCA's do not match.
Different APR % all over the document.

A court might just ask why, since you had the original documents, did you request a s78 copy?

Other than to avoid the debt, of course.

It is your lawful right to request a copy of your agreement under s.77-79 of the CCA, :grin: even when it's well known that the purpose of such requests is often to assess enforceability, and, should the agreement be regarded as potentially unenforceable or there simply isn't one available, the outcome will be to stop making payments and let the debt go SBd. :thumb:

A biased judge may well view it like debt avoidance, however, this is likely to be the case whenever the debtor has argued the enforceability of the account. The fact still remains, judges have to rule in accordance with the law rather than their own opinion, which is when s.127 kicks in and why post April 2007 agreements are hard to challenge following the repeal of that section. :thumb:

You may want to look at the post below :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Yep, I had a DJ who thought I was a filthy debt avoider but here's what PT had to say about that

http://paulatwatsonssolicitors.wordp...ebt-avoidance/

A wise DJ once said "we're here to judge facts not morals". I hope I get that DJ next time :nod:

EDIT: Plan B = Di Mayhew the dirty debt dodger in the Santander vs Mayhew case

[gmleo]

Re: Hi, just joined

Originally Posted by Flaming Parrot
The overdrafts are not subjected to a CCA request as such but they still have a duty to provide certain information. What's the current situation with them? Are they hassling you?

Yes but not overly so, I've not responded to any DCA letters since defaulting. Nada, Niendo, Nichivo, Nowt.
Being much smaller than the Credit Card amounts they've really not taken too much attention from me, until now. I've concentrated my efforts on the CCA faults only.
Are there any known common faults/flaws in a bank account agreement that I could use to prevent enforcement for overdrafts?

Originally Posted by Flaming Parrot
Default dates are all quite a long time ago, remind me again, have you been making payments after you defaulted? If not, they are getting very closed to SBd! :thumb:

Made no payments at all no. No communication from me. Sometimes being an Ostrich is a Good Thing !
This is the reason I was looking into actual default dates, as I'm aware that often I defaulted months before the creditor defaults me.
In reality, some of these debts could be SB next month, rather than Jan 2014 for example, depending on who's viewpoint you take.
In an earlier reply to that very point in this thread #11 labman replied

the date is taken from when the creditor terminates the contract, according to a recent case. Up until that point it is argued that the account could still be rectified

, or words to that effect.
I would argue that would depend on personal circumstances, surely?
How likely are circumstances to change that would enable me to pay the entire debt within say, 3 months?
In my case, zero, minus zero, until Hell freezes over chance of that happening, so why can't I use my dates as they're more accurate?

Originally Posted by Flaming Parrot
What sort of information are you hoping to get your hands on by sending SARs?

Ideally, anything labelled "For God's sake don't let the client see this!!" would be a good start.
To learn whether I applied online or applied with paper would be useful.

I'm sorting through paperwork today to get this mess organized, off Staples first to get a proper filing system going.
Each debt needs its own file, or at least separators.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Hi, just joined

Yes but not overly so, I've not responded to any DCA letters since defaulting. Nada, Niendo, Nichivo, Nowt.
Being much smaller than the Credit Card amounts they've really not taken too much attention from me, until now. I've concentrated my efforts on the CCA faults only.
Are there any known common faults/flaws in a bank account agreement that I could use to prevent enforcement for overdrafts?

You may want to look at this, where the subject was discussed at some length: http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...144#post312144

Having said that, if you are not being hassled, I'd just let sleeping dogs lie.

Made no payments at all no. No communication from me. Sometimes being an Ostrich is a Good Thing !
This is the reason I was looking into actual default dates, as I'm aware that often I defaulted months before the creditor defaults me.
In reality, some of these debts could be SB next month, rather than Jan 2014 for example, depending on who's viewpoint you take.

There is, indeed, some argument regarding the Cause of Action with regards to SBd, whether it refers to your first missed payment - when you actually defaulted rather than when the default was recorded, which would normally be 3-6 months later - or the account termination. The date of the first missed payment is widely accepted. See this thread: http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...e-Barred-debts

This is the official factsheet: http://www.nationaldebtline.co.uk/en...limitation_act

Note where it says:

The cause of action (when the limitation period starts running) for simple contract debts, is usually when your agreement says the creditor is able to take court action because you have fallen behind with payments. This is normally after one or two missed payments. Sometimes, a debt will have no set repayment time. For these sorts of debts, working out the cause of action is more difficult.

I'm sorting through paperwork today to get this mess organized, off Staples first to get a proper filing system going.
Each debt needs its own file, or at least separators.

Definitely a good idea to get it all sorted,:clap2: although I don't practice what I preach

One of them accordion files is useful for letters, etc. although the pockets probably wouldn't have enough capacity to accommodate a full SAR.

[gmleo]

Re: Hi, just joined

Thanks for your replies guy & Gals, I'm learning so much.
Noticed I'm a VIP now? Anyone?

I'm unclear as to the rules for Credit Score agencies holding details of a default if the section 78 request has failed.
If I've requested a section 78 and fail to produce anything for months, am I within my rights to request the default be removed from my record until such time they can either produce one, or 6 years has passed, whichever comes first?

[MIKE770]

Re: Hi, just joined

Thanks for your replies guy & Gals, I'm learning so much.
Noticed I'm a VIP now? Anyone?

I'm unclear as to the rules for Credit Score agencies holding details of a default if the section 78 request has failed.
If I've requested a section 78 and fail to produce anything for months, am I within my rights to request the default be removed from my record until such time they can either produce one, or 6 years has passed, whichever comes first?

VIP = subscribed money to the site?

CRAs just state the true (suppose) state of the account i.e. and late payments or defaults etc, section 78 will not come into it.

[gmleo]

Re: Hi, just joined

Hi Mike770.
Yes = subscribed money to the site.
Sorry if you thought I was just flaunting my ego again?