Lowell/Co-op question - Account bought, lowell chasing with no details

[lexis200]

Hi all

This has a bit of a background to it which I'll explain below.

I had a co-op account (circa 2002 I think) which I CCA'd in 2008 after trying to arrange a payment plan with them and them being impossible to deal with, then sticking a big fat D on my credit record by way of 'helping' (this was in '07). They sent an application form with no prescribed terms - several times actually due to it being illegible and me telling them this wasn't an enforceable agreement. Always got the same application, never anything with any terms.

In 2009 I SAR'd them and got a load of useless cr*p, including someone else's statments and details, but still no agreement, and no notes or copies of any default notices/termination letters. At this point I also stopped paying on my payment plan to them. They had refused to accept my genuine pro-rata offer and were insisting on more than I could afford before accepting a payment plan (and still charging interest whilst on plan!), didn't have an enforceable agreement and had other issues (explained below). When they became so hard to deal with I essentially thought 'sod'em'. Not the best attitude I grant you, but there you go.

Looking back through my correspondence from them I then found a termination notice from April 2007 'your agreement with the bank has been terminated'. As I had been keeping everything I know they had not sent a default notice prior to this, so this was an unlawful termination.

2nd July 2009 I received a default notice giving 14 days dead - no postage time allowed so wouldn't even have been valid if hand delivered. The account was then terminated (again) on the 24th July 2009.

During this time I had been writing to their 'head of' whatever dept - usually the feckin' useless and ignorant Val McCarren regarding the illegible/unenforceable application. When the termination came to light, I'd had the default and second termination and I had reached 13 calls in 3 days I wrote to the CEO. No response worth mentioning from any of them, although the 'Exectutive Feeback' person who replied in lieu of the CEO did tell me (regarding not leaving enough time for remedy on the default) that 14 days was not for me to remedy, but was the minimum time allowed before they could take action, so the lack of time allowed for me to remedy was not an issue. I complained about this lie but got no response.

I was then passed round the usual suspects Phoenix (who told me that an application form with no PT's was enforceable, and that they didn't need to send a default notice before terminating), Moorcroft, Fredrickson. All gave up after I told them to check with the Co-op about the myriad problems with the account. All of these had about a 3/4 month gap between the next one showing up, although I seem to remember a crossover between Freds and Moorcroft.

Step in Lowell, 2 years after the last DCA disappeared off into silence, who contacted me in Feb 2013 stating that they'd bought the account and I needed to pay them now. I sent them the usual get lost, I don't give details to third parties letter. Told them they should have got the details from the Co-op before taking on the account. They wrote back asking me for details. I responded by saying that it's not my job to give them information just because they didn't have the good sense to do a background check, talk to Co-op.

They've now come back and said that the Co-op have no record of any dispute being raised - not that they disagree with a dispute, simply that I've not raised one. I've just looked through my files, and over the course of 4 years I've sent and received over 50 letters to the Co-op and their agents, several of which are formal complaints, one to the CEO! Lowell are asking again for information and have given 28 days before they start their threatograms again.

My question is - how to deal with this?

My gut is saying that I should just tell them again that they bought the account so I am not about to help them out with information that they should have got before their purchase. If they bought the account it means they bought the rights and duties, so surely they have all the paperwork associated with it. If they haven't, that's not my issue. I'm also of the mind that they will chase no matter what proof I provide, so it would be a waste of my time anyway.

My problem with that is that, looking round the forums, it appears Lowell have no issue trundling into court with sod all evidence.

So, any thoughts on my next step?

All opinions gratefully received.

[labman]

Re: Lowell/Co-op question - Account bought, lowell chasing with no details

You are clearly well clued up. I assume the CCA Request was for an overdraft? What figure are we talking?

A prove it letter may be useful if they have no information. They are unlikely to go much further immediately if you maintain contact, and that is the usual starting point. I agree it is for them to chase, not you though.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Lowell/Co-op question - Account bought, lowell chasing with no details

We really need to know what sort of account this was, I doubt a CCA request for an O/D would have been sent as far back as 2008, long before The Consumer Credit (EU Directive) Regulations 2010... :confused2:

...the Co-op would probably just have written back saying a CCA request was not applicable for a current account, so it would be interesting to know what the application form was for... :noidea: Could it have been a loan instead of an O/D? :ohwell:

Lowell are known for dishing out Statutory Demands :scared: rather than going to court trying to obtain a CCJ, especially when they've got no paperwork - they do it on purpose, knowing they wouldn't get very far through the normal route. :rant:
Celestine, our site admin, :yo: has a lot of experience beating the Lowlifes when they issue them, :whoo: but it's always best to lay a nice, neat paper trail. :typing:

[labman]

Re: Lowell/Co-op question - Account bought, lowell chasing with no details

Lowell are known for dishing out Statutory Demands :scared: rather than going to court trying to obtain a CCJ, especially when they've got no paperwork - they do it on purpose, knowing they wouldn't get very far through the normal route. :rant:

That's why I asked what sum we're talking about. I didn't want to alarm the OP! :fear::jaw::scared:

[lexis200]

Re: Lowell/Co-op question - Account bought, lowell chasing with no details

Hi all, thanks for the responses.

I've been dealing with this stuff for several years now after ending up in trouble following a series of bad luck, so have a working (but limited) knowledge, I'm just newish to this site

Sorry, completely forgot to add what it was It's a credit card, and only about £800, and it was a section 78 request under the CCA. We hit a bad patch after I became ill some years ago and hubby lost his contracting job due to looking after me at the time, and Co-op have hands down been the worst to deal with. They are by some way the smallest debt, but were the least helpful by a mile.

I've dealt with most DCA's now, but only encountered Lowell once when they chased my hubby. I sent them a couple of 'check with the OC' letters and they gave up on it fairly quickly. In this case though, it appears the OC is telling porkies to their agents.

As for keeping a paper trail, I think I've got that covered with my file full of letters to and fro, so that's a start

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Lowell/Co-op question - Account bought, lowell chasing with no details

My gut is saying that I should just tell them again that they bought the account so I am not about to help them out with information that they should have got before their purchase. If they bought the account it means they bought the rights and duties, so surely they have all the paperwork associated with it. If they haven't, that's not my issue. I'm also of the mind that they will chase no matter what proof I provide, so it would be a waste of my time anyway.

My problem with that is that, looking round the forums, it appears Lowell have no issue trundling into court with sod all evidence.

So, any thoughts on my next step?

All opinions gratefully received.

They bought the right and duties but debts are usually sold in bulk, with no paperwork. Debt purchasers pay around 10p in the pound for debt that may be unenforceable, disputed or even statute barred! When met with a request for documents, they would have to go back to the OC.

As you say it's just £800, a Statutory Demand shouldn't be a big concern. They could still issue one because the threshold is £750 but it would cost them more than that to petition if they wanted to do so, and you could easily reduce the debt to below £750 if it came to that so I wouldn't worry about that scenario.

As it's been quite a while, you could just send a fresh CCA request to Lowell, after all it costs just £1... that should get them crawling back underneath their stone... :thumb:

[labman]

Re: Lowell/Co-op question - Account bought, lowell chasing with no details

I agree, CCA or Prove It letter.

[lexis200]

Re: Lowell/Co-op question - Account bought, lowell chasing with no details

They bought the right and duties but debts are usually sold in bulk, with no paperwork. Well that's a bit foolish of them then Debt purchasers pay around 10p in the pound for debt that may be unenforceable, disputed or even statute barred! When met with a request for documents, they would have to go back to the OC. Surely that's a bit of a grey area legally speaking then, because how do they know what the rights and duties of that account are if they don't have any paperwork?

As you say it's just £800, a Statutory Demand shouldn't be a big concern. They could still issue one because the threshold is £750 but it would cost them more than that to petition if they wanted to do so, and you could easily reduce the debt to below £750 if it came to that so I wouldn't worry about that scenario. Actually that's easier said than done at the moment. Sad I know, but true.

As it's been quite a while, you could just send a fresh CCA request to Lowell, after all it costs just £1... that should get them crawling back underneath their stone... :thumb:

Well I suppose I could add another dodgy copy of an application form to my pile of accrued toot from the Co-op et all It has been a while since I sent a CCA request - I've copied the one I used to use below, would you be able to tell me if there's anything that's out of date please?

Dear Sir/Madam

Re:− Account/Reference Number xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

With reference to the above agreement, I require that you provide me a true copy of the credit agreement

I am aware that section 78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 sets out clearly what is required to comply with my request and quote “shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it” For clarification I require a copy of the agreement, any terms and conditions from the time when the agreement was executed, together with a copy of current terms and conditions and a copy of the cancellation notice if the agreement refers to “Your Right to Cancel” within it. I also require a statement of account as laid out within Section 78(1). If there weren’t any terms and conditions then please confirm this in your response

I am entitled to receive the information on request. I enclose a payment of £1.00, which represents the fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

I note that section 172 outlines that statements by creditors are binding where made under inter alia section 78(1) and I take this to be that any reply made in response to this request is binding upon you. Therefore you should ensure that all documents requested are supplied. Any missing documents will be considered not part of the agreement and could therefore affect the enforceability of anything you send.

I understand that Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1569) at regulation 2 sets out the required time frame for compliance with this request as being 12 working days from receipt

Should you fail to comply with my request as outlined above, I shall consider the account in dispute. I am aware that where a creditor fails to supply the requested information the creditor’s rights to enforcement are restricted until such time as they comply. I am also aware that there are certain terms that are required to be within the “Agreement” and should these terms be mis-stated or not present the agreement can be rendered unenforceable in law.

Notwithstanding the above, I note that the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557) at Regulation 3 allows the signature box and signature, to be omitted in a copy document, but that the copy document must be a ‘true copy’. This means identical in both form and content (including all prescribed terms as required), to the signed, executed, original agreement, as presented or sent to the debtor for signature.

I respectfully request that you provide a copy of the original agreement signed by me that you hold on file, and while I accept that you can omit the signature box for the purposes of compliance with my request, you will be aware that any challenge to the agreement in court would require the signed copy of the original agreement.

If you still reject this, please provide clarification on the status of the Original Credit Agreement and confirm either that you hold the original signed agreement on file, or a copy of it on microfiche, or that you no longer hold the file

I look forward to receiving this information within the time frames as indicated above

Yours faithfully

Thanks again for your help

[lexis200]

Re: Lowell/Co-op question - Account bought, lowell chasing with no details

Btw, what would a prove-it letter be? I assume something to put the onus of proof that the debt is owed and is legitimate on them, but isn't that what a CCA and/or SAR does? Or have I muddled myself?

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Lowell/Co-op question - Account bought, lowell chasing with no details

Btw, what would a prove-it letter be? I assume something to put the onus of proof that the debt is owed and is legitimate on them, but isn't that what a CCA and/or SAR does? Or have I muddled myself?

This is a prove it letter template: http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...9479#post59479

It is slightly different in that it applies to ANY debt, including those that don't fall under the CCA (such as utilities, mobile phones, etc.) and it doesn't ask for a specific document such as a true copy of your agreement. The idea is that, if they can't prove you owe the money and they have the right to collect, they should go away. :bolt:

A CCA request is an official request for a copy of your agreement under s.77-79 of the CCA so it would only apply to regulated agreements. Non compliance with a CCA request can make the account unenforceable until it's complied with. They have 14 days to comply and it costs £1. I would be inclined to remove the bits about omitting the signature box if it was me... :thumb:

A SAR is a request under the Data Protection Act for all information/data held about you, normally you'd request one to get hold of statements and other documents pertinent to your account. They have 40 days to respond and it costs £10.

[labman]

Re: Lowell/Co-op question - Account bought, lowell chasing with no details

This is a prove it letter template: http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...9479#post59479

It is slightly different in that it applies to ANY debt, including those that don't fall under the CCA (such as utilities, mobile phones, etc.) and it doesn't ask for a specific document such as a true copy of your agreement. The idea is that, if they can't prove you owe the money and they have the right to collect, they should go away. :bolt:

A CCA request is an official request for a copy of your agreement under s.77-79 of the CCA so it would only apply to regulated agreements. Non compliance with a CCA request can make the account unenforceable until it's complied with. They have 14 days to comply and it costs £1. I would be inclined to remove the bits about omitting the signature box if it was me... :thumb:

A SAR is a request under the Data Protection Act for all information/data held about you, normally you'd request one to get hold of statements and other documents pertinent to your account. They have 40 days to respond and it costs £10.

Show off! :tung::tung::tung:


:grin::grin::grin::grin::grin:

[lexis200]

Re: Lowell/Co-op question - Account bought, lowell chasing with no details

Aah, thanks. I have sent similar to other DCA's, but didn't know it was called that!

I'm not sure it would apply for me though as I've already told them there are issues with the account (even though I always start letters with 'I do not acknowledge any debt' etc), so I've kind of intimated it's mine, even though I've told them it's unenforceable for various reasons.

I think for the time being I'll go with FlamingParrot's advice and CCA them. I've already SAR'd the Co-op a few years ago, and I can't afford a tenner atm so I'll leave that as is. I'm tempted to use CurlyBen's CCA letter instead of mine though because, as he puts it, it gives them more to do

I'll get that done as soon as I can and send it off to them. Have to say, it's more than annoying that I have to spend my time and money yet again on this pointless cr*p from the Co-op and their agents. They have been talking out of their bottoms and sending me round the houses with DCA's for over 4 years now. I can't believe £800 odd on a massively flawed account is really worth it to them!

[lexis200]

Re: Lowell/Co-op question - Account bought, lowell chasing with no details

Hello again

Just a quickie...

I've been slow off the mark getting a letter out to Lowell, but I was just about to head out for a postal order this morning when I suddenly thought what happens if they apply the £1 to the account, which I've had DCA's and banks do in the past? It hasn't mattered before as I've been on payment plans so there's no issue, however I've not paid or acknowledged this account for 4 years or so, so if they put that money on as a payment I'm back to square 1. I have written in the cover letter that the PO is solely for the required CCA fee and must not be applied to the account, however if they ignore that (I know, I'm suggesting a DCA may not be entirely trustworthy here. Surely not... ) where would I stand?

Any thoughts?

Is there any point do you think in me just re-iterating what I've said before re: they should have done their homework, and that the Co-op have outright lied to them about their being no dispute raised? Aside from anything, they never fully complied with the original CCA request from years ago (no historic or current t's and c's, illegible application with no prescribed terms).

I have a cover letter ready which will suit whether or not I CCA them as well, but I'd appreciate knowing what others think.

Thanks very much

[lexis200]

Re: Lowell/Co-op question - Account bought, lowell chasing with no details

Hello all, I just thought I'd update on this.

I didn't CCA them, I just sent another 'perhaps you'd better check your facts' type letter, and today I received this:-

Further to our letter of xx (which said I was completely and utterly wrong and needed to pay them NOW), I have concluded my review of your complaint.

Whilst the information available to us indicates that this debt is due and payable, we will, in the circumstances, take no further action to recover the debt and the account will be closed.

I regret any distress or inconvenience that may have been caused and I trust this now concludes the matter.

Personally I think it's very good of them to close the matter when they clearly have every right to chase it :ohwell:

I think that makes 5 dca's on this account, which is just over £800 and has so many issues it would be funny if it wasn't so irritating. Can it really be worth their while??

[labman]

Re: Lowell/Co-op question - Account bought, lowell chasing with no details

Good news. Does that mean they're intending to pass it on to yet another DCA, or they're going to write it off? :beagle: