CREATION Ac. in Dispute passed to DCA's with NO Default Notice Issued

[Bill-K]

I thought I'd have got this one sorted by now, but Creation are playing their usual silly bu99ers games - so I think I had better post it up, as I may need some advice.
Background story is that I took out a taxi driver's insurance policy last year via brokers Insurance Choice. This was financed by Creation Finance, so that I paid the premium in monthly instalments. In March this year, I no longer needed the insurance, and I contacted IC to tell them I wished to cancel it mid-term and was cancelling the monthly Direct Debit. I was expecting them to charge me a penalty for this, but I got no reply or acknowledgement.

Instead, I got letters from Creation and from IC whingeing about arrears and asking me to contact them urgently, as the insurance cover was now in jeopardy. I got on to IC and told them I had already cancelled, but I had heard nowt from them. They apologised and confirmed that they would cancel immediately, and also that they would not be making any further charges for doing this. I did not contact Creation, as I did not think it necessary, and assumed that IC - as the broker - had the responsibility for this as it was their error, not mine. So - all done and dusted, and I did indeed receive no further correspondence from either IC or Creation.

However, in August, I got a letter from Creation's Collections Dept., saying I owe them £394 for early cancellation as per the credit agreement I signed with them. I haven't even got around to finding my copy of this agreement yet, but I guess I had better do, now. Before I had even had a chance to reply to this letter, I got another one a week later demanding £419. I emailed Creation and told them that I dispute the alleged debt, as IC had previously confirmed to me that no further charges would be made. I also sent them a copy of IC's Terms of Business which state

If you are paying by direct debit, on cancellation any money that is in hand will first be used to clear the insurer’s charge plus any administration fees. Should the amount be insufficient we will invoice you for the outstanding balance.

So - here's the email I sent Creation pointing this out.

Dear Mr Taylor
Account No. XXXX

I am sorry for not responding to your request for payment, as I assume it to be erroneous. When I cancelled my insurance with Insurance Choice (IC) earlier this year, they confirmed that I would not be charged or penalised for that cancellation.

Paragraph 6 of their terms of business states:
“If you are paying by direct debit, on cancellation any money that is in hand will first be used to clear the insurer’s charge plus any administration fees. Should the amount be insufficient we will invoice you for the outstanding balance.”

Following their assurance, no invoice for any further amount was expected from IC., and nor has one been received. I have therefore considered the matter closed. However, if you do indeed consider that a further amount is now payable, then I suggest that you contact IC about this, as they have assured me that this is not the case.

I hope I have been of some assistance in resolving this matter.

Yours sincerely,

Bill-K

This email was acknowledged, but has not been replied to by Creation.

[Bill-K]

Re: CREATION Ac. in Dispute passed to DCA's with NO Default Notice Issued

Instead, I received a 'Final Demand' for £459 from Creation. This was dated 24/08/12, and gave me just 5 working days from that date to pay up. It arrived on 31/08/12 !!! So, I sent another email, which was acknowledged, but not answered.

Then on 06/09/12, I received a 'Notification of Instruction' from Clarity Credit Management Solutions Ltd., saying that Creation had instructed them to collect £459 from me, and that I had been served with a Default Notice. I replied thus by email:

Dear Sirs
Account No. XXXX

I am in receipt of a ‘Notification of Instruction’ dated 06/09/12 from an un-named person in your Collections Department.
This appears to allege that I owe Creation Consumer Finance £459.01 in connection with the above-referenced account, and that I have been served with a Default Notice in pursuance of Section 87 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.
I must advise and confirm that I dispute the alleged debt, and I have informed Creation of this. Under those circumstances, it is unlawful for the Original Creditor to refer the alleged debt to another agency to pursue.
I therefore respectfully but firmly insist that you cease and desist from any further pursuit of this matter, and that you formally decline your acceptance of the instruction which you appear to have accepted. As matters currently stand, to continue with this pursuit may be seen as harassment and defamation – and I am sure you will be aware of this.
Unless you now provide me me - within 14 days of the date of this letter - with clear and unambiguous proof that this alleged debt actually exists, AND that you are lawfully entitled to demand money from it will be deemed by default that you have abandoned your pursuit of this matter.

Yours faithfully,

Bill-K

Clarity replied the same day, confirming that the account will be returned to their client, and I would be hearing no more from Clarity. I then sent the following to Creation - both by email and by snail-mail:

Dear Mr Taylor

Account No. XXXX
Please find attached a copy of the letter I sent to you by email on 29/08/12, in response to several letters from you, demanding increasing amounts of money from me, and adding ridiculous charges for so doing. I was assured by Kiranveer Rai that this would be forwarded to Collections Department but so far I have not had the courtesy of a reply.

I did, however, receive a ‘Final Demand’ on 31/08/12. This was dated 24/08/12, and demanded payment of £459.01 within five working days. I immediately emailed Kiranveer Rai about this, and reminded him that I was still awaiting a reply to my earlier email. To date, I have still heard absolutely nothing in reply to my emails.
My emailed letter of 29/09/12 clearly puts this account in dispute, and gave my clear reasons for so doing. I believe it is unlawful for you to take further enforcement action, or to refer it to a Debt Collection Agency. I believe you are also required to properly serve a Lawful Default Notice as required by Section 87(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, and you have failed to do this. With no notice at all from you, I have now received a ‘Notification of Instruction’ from Clarity Credit Management Solutions Ltd., demanding that I pay them £459.01. I don’t know who they are, but I do not believe that they have any more right to demand this money than you have to instruct them.

Originally, I assumed that your demands had been made in error, but I regret to say that your actions and apparent attitude since I pointed this out to you are leaving me with the clear impression that your actions are calculated and deliberate. I am sorry to have to take this stance with you, but I have been defrauded before by apparently respectable firms, and I am that much the wiser for it. I do not intend to let that happen again. I have tried to be reasonable and attempted to resolve this matter with you, and you appear to have totally ignored my efforts. Should you insist on continuing with this pursuit, then I do not think your conduct thus far will be viewed very favourably by a court of law, and I respectfully suggest that you rectify this. I shall certainly bring your apparent contempt of pre-action protocol to the court’s – or any other agency’s – attention, should this be necessary.

Please find attached a copy of my emailed letter to you dated 28/08/12, and I hope you will now respond to it in a proper and lawful manner.

Yours sincerely,

Bill-K

To date, no response to this letter has been received.

[Bill-K]

Re: CREATION Ac. in Dispute passed to DCA's with NO Default Notice Issued

Today, I received a letter from West Midlands Debt Collections Ltd., demanding £459 IMMEDIATELY. They also said "Please do not contact our client as they will refer you to us." They have no email address, and use an 0871 number, so, I'll be sending them the same as I sent Clarity - but by 2nd class Snail-Mail.

Plus, I'll email Creation with a copy of it, along with a few words from me, on the lines of:

Dear Mr Taylor,
Account No. XXXX

Please find attached a copy of the letter I have sent to WMD Collections. Despite this account being in dispute, you have completely and deliberately ignored my attempts to resolve that dispute. Instead, you have so far attempted to pass it to TWO Debt Collection Agencies - and have attempted to do that in the absence of a lawfully-issued Default Notice.

I am sure you will be aware that your actions are unlawful, and that if you continue with this unreasonable and unlawful behaviour you will also be guilty of harassment. You clearly have no intention of pursuing this matter lawfully, as you are already in breach of the law, and your conduct thus far would not be looked upon as reasonable or lawful by any court.

Now, this is where I'm wavering a bit. I know what a bunch of nasties Creation can be, and I'm hoping they are now just 'trying it on' with me. But I guess I need to be sure I'm standing on solid ground if I'm gonna need to fire some bigger guns. So - any criticism is welcome. Even if I don't implement it, I can take it (I think).

[Nic]

Re: CREATION Ac. in Dispute passed to DCA's with NO Default Notice Issued

I wish I could help bill but have no clue in these areas so just sending my wishes

[dogtired]

Re: CREATION Ac. in Dispute passed to DCA's with NO Default Notice Issued

I wish I could help bill but have no clue in these areas so just sending my wishes

My good wishes too, wish I could help
DT x

[Bill-K]

Re: CREATION Ac. in Dispute passed to DCA's with NO Default Notice Issued

Your good wishes are much appreciated, Nic. Bless ya !!!
I'm OK with this so far, but I run out of confidence very easily. That's when I ask my friends here to chuck in some verbal abuse to support me - so thank you for your kind words.
Thank you for yours, too DT. :billk:

If I've fouled up big-time, then I'll get some verbal abuse from the other guys here eventually. Throwing $h1t at each other is what us gorillaz are good at !!! But if I need help later, then I've laid the foundations.

[Nic]

Re: CREATION Ac. in Dispute passed to DCA's with NO Default Notice Issued

Don't doubt yourself your very knowledgable and help so many of us. I'm sure others will b able to chip in with there knowledge

[Bill-K]

Re: CREATION Ac. in Dispute passed to DCA's with NO Default Notice Issued

Just updating. I decided to wait a while, as these muppets always seem to be very quick off the mark with their threatograms, but so far I have heard nothing more from them. Maybe I'll hear again, maybe I won't. If they have given up already, then OK. But if they have passed this back to Creation, passed it on - or even decided to pursue it further - then I think I ought to cover myself, for the price of a stamp.

I think I'll send a "who are you, and what is this ?" letter and get a Proof of Delivery certificate. That way, I have responded as requested, and the onus is on them to prove the existence of a debt, along with their right to pursue it.

[Ruby]

Re: CREATION Ac. in Dispute passed to DCA's with NO Default Notice Issued

Bill sorry I can't help with advice however you seem to be doing the right thing. How do these companies manage to rattle our cages even when we know we are in the right?

[Guest]

Re: CREATION Ac. in Dispute passed to DCA's with NO Default Notice Issued

Hi Bill

Are you keeping an eye on our credit file?

D

[Bill-K]

Re: CREATION Ac. in Dispute passed to DCA's with NO Default Notice Issued

Thanks for your comments and support, guys. Yeah, Ruby - I reckon it's because there are still loads of people out there who send these DCA's money without question, because they believe the threats. The word is spreading, though, I'm sure.

Davy - yes, good question. Now, in my case, I did a Trust Deed a while ago (Scottish IVA) - so I'm not even gonna peep at my credit record !!! I've worked 'cash-in-hand' for many years now - so I'm happy to live that way. Having said that, I got hit by a bunch of 'repair your credit' card applications a while back, and I decided to see if I qualified. I actually now have THREE credit card accounts !!! But I still don't give a toss about my credit file...!!!

Here's what I've just printed off - to post tomorrow. 2nd class !!!

It's the letter I have used over the years, but with improvements added - which I have lifted from Militant's excellent one. Many thanks, Militant.

Alleged Debt to Premium First – Account No. XXXX

I acknowledge receipt of your recent letter, demanding money and threatening me with further action.

If I am to treat your demand with any seriousness at all, then I must insist that you arrange for the Original Creditor - allegedly and presumably Premium First - to DIRECTLY provide me with FULL details of this alleged debt, along with a proper Notice of Assignation of the same to yourselves.

If you are indeed a legitimate DCA, then I am sure that you will be aware that the CPUTR 2008 and the OFT's Guidance on debt collection make it clear that it is not acceptable to send demands for payment to an individual when it is uncertain that they are the debtor in question, or that they are liable for such payments. In not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt, you are also deemed to be using deceptive/and or unfair methods. Additionally, ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment amounts to physical/psychological harassment.

Until such time as you can supply clear proof that this alleged debt exists and is lawfully enforceable, AND that you have been lawfully and properly authorised to pursue it, then I must politely - but firmly - insist that you refrain from threatening me further.

Should you attempt to pursue this matter through the courts, then please be aware that the court will require certain pre-action protocols to be observed. This includes viewing the conduct of all parties in the matter prior to the claim being submitted. I am not sure that the court would view the conduct of your client or yourselves thus far in a very favourable light.
As things stand, I have no indication of what this sum of money is for, nor whether you have any lawful authority to request it from me. I am sure, therefore, that you will see that the only sensible action I can take is to treat your claim as fraudulent, which - incidentally - is why your original letter was treated with the contempt it appeared to deserve, and was simply ignored.

I appreciate that you may well be doing a difficult job with the sincerest of intentions. However, I must ask you to similarly appreciate that there are increasing numbers of fraudulent operations in the field of Debt Recovery, and that I must - with all due respect - assume that your demand is fraudulent. Therefore, unless and until you can provide the lawfully-required documentation to support your claim WITHIN 14 DAYS of the date of this letter, it will be deemed by default that you have confirmed your abandonment of this pursuit.

I am sorry to have to take this stance with you, but I have been defrauded before, and I am now very much the wiser for that. Please be advised that further unlawful attempts to obtain money from me will be referred to the regulatory bodies, and possibly to the Police as fraudulent.

[labman]

Re: CREATION Ac. in Dispute passed to DCA's with NO Default Notice Issued

Hi Bill,

I'm not sure where I've been while this has been going on, but somehow it has managed to pass me by - sincere apologies for that.

You are clearly well versed in looking after yourself in this sort of situation and I believe you are indeed on solid ground. The letter above should read Notice of Assignment rather than Notice of Assignation just to prove I read it!

I wonder whether before you take this step of talking so clearly about court action, which is pretty close to your final few cards, whether you should perhaps think first about e-mailing their CEO. After a bit of digging Creation Finance have been part of Laser UK for nearly 4 years and their CEO's e-mail is below:
stephen.hunt@laseruk.com

Maybe rather than take the court angle at this initial contact you could stress your infuriation and desperation at getting no sense from his employees, hence taking this step. Perhaps emphasising disappointment combined with harassment (which is what this amounts to in my eyes) might save a couple of aces up your sleeve.

If you want any 'words' for a harassment letter, just pm me, but I wouldn't dream of advising one so good with words how to write a good letter lol!

Just my thoughts for what they're worth. :billk:

[Guest]

Re: CREATION Ac. in Dispute passed to DCA's with NO Default Notice Issued

Pretty good"up yours" letter BILL

D

[Bill-K]

Re: CREATION Ac. in Dispute passed to DCA's with NO Default Notice Issued

Cheers Labman. I have some idea where you have been - so please do not apologise. You get a silver star for proving that you read my drivel - and a gold star for posting some pointers !!! It has become apparent to me that there seems to be a difference 'twixt such similar-sounding documents as 'Letter of Assignment,' Notice of Assignment,' and 'Deed of Assignment.' I found myself using the word 'Assignation,' as it just seemed a little more pompous !!! I'll amend it to the requisite term - thank you, sir.

Also agreed - this bunch (Creation's 'In-house' thuglets ?) haven't mentioned litigation, so I kept it low-key in the letter. I'll keep it up my sleeve now, thanks to your advice. I am sincerely obliged to you for the CEO info, mate. I reckon I'll send this first, and see what I get back. If it's zilch, I won't rock the boat. If it's more excrement, I'll email & write to the.....CEO, Mr Hunt. Your exhortations concur with what I oft suggest to others - that we keep our 'defensive' position as the injured party, as opposed to going into 'attack' mode. I appreciate your gentle reminder of that !!!

Hopefully, it won't need 'harassment' verbage - but Creation are an odd bunch, aren't they ? If I need help with that, I'll shout for help - thank you.

Davy - A man of few words as ever. I'm sure if it was a cr@p letter, you'd have jumped down my throat by now !!! When one gets 'few words' from our Davy - I consider it a compliment !!! Cheers, guv'nor !!!

[labman]

Re: CREATION Ac. in Dispute passed to DCA's with NO Default Notice Issued

Creation are an odd bunch, aren't they

That must be one of the biggest understatements on this site.