Sainsbury's Bank Credit Card now with DLC

[legalese]

Re: Sainsbury's Bank Credit Card now with DLC

I've never thought of it like that, L. But surely, if a debt is purchased, then the legal right to pursue it is a part of the sale, isn't it ?

where is the contract that says that, you never gave permission to them to sell anything.

[Bill-K]

Re: Sainsbury's Bank Credit Card now with DLC

I'm not sure that a creditor needs the debtor's permission to sell the debt - or to 'assign' it - to another agent. The debt is 'owned' by the creditor, and not by the debtor, surely. What the debtor 'owns' is the property - or 'consideration' for which the creditor agreed to provide in return for an agreed sum of money (or other 'consideration') - although I agree that such 'ownership' may be limited under the agreement. So, for example - if the owner of a car bought under a hire purchase agreement is not allowed to sell the car without the lender's permission, then the borrower has a 'reciprocal' right under that agreement ? And if not, then should he - because the contract is unbalanced ?

[bluebottle]

Re: Sainsbury's Bank Credit Card now with DLC

Having looked at the original post, in my considered judgement, the agreement and the charges Sainsburys added needs to be investigated and Sainsburys required to answer some questions. The original agreement needs to be obtained and scrutinised in detail. I would be inclined to put the DCAs on notice you require them to provide you with a first-generation copy of the original agreement that is correctly certified, not a reconstituted or reconstructed agreement. If they are unco-operative, that's when you start hitting them below the belt.

[jax50]

Re: Sainsbury's Bank Credit Card now with DLC

I feel like a slave, being passed from master to master. Sainsbury's 'passed' the account firstly to Blair,Oliver...with whom I had contact for a year or so...next up Hillesden Securities trading as DLC suddenly turn up saying I belong to them now. I presume DLC 'bought' the account from Blair Oliver so would probably have had no contact at all with Sainsbury's. If Blair Oliver were 'agents' to sainsbury's, as they said Sainsbury's were their client this might be the case, they would seem to be the ones who then sold on the account to DLC. I suppose DLC could contact Blair Oliver and ask them to contact Sainsbury's for the original agreement, but that looks a bit unlikely. Would I get to know, or do I need to know what the relationships are/were between Sainsbury's and Blair Oliver and between Blair Oliver and/or Sainsbury's and DLC ? In other words even if DLC produce the original contract, what is the proof that they 'own' the account ? Do they need to send me an invoice or some document which proves they bought the account.? Is that the 'deed of assignment' I've asked for ?

The second part of my question is have Sainsbury's written off the debt in their accounts, against their bad debt provision, and does this matter or not ? If Blair Oliver were agents, will they have paid Sainsbury's for the account, and if they did how would I find out how much, or as agents will they just be acting on behalf of ? Finally, when Blair Oliver sold the account (which I'm assuming they did) does it matter what DLC paid for it and does it effectively mean the debt was paid off by DLC, to Blair Oliver/Sainsbury's ? Am I getting this right and does it matter what is paid to who ? The point I'm trying to make is if DLC paid ,say, £1000 for the account then how is it still worth £8000 ? Would DLC pay the remaining £7000 to the OC and just keep £1000, in which case they make nothing out of all this... No, DLC are wanting to make a profit aren't they, and that profit arises from the fact that Sainsbury's wrote off most of the account when they sold it. If I could find out what DLC paid I could offer maybe 20% on top, for their profit...end of.?

One final final point, on my Credit Card Agreement letter that came with the original card affixed..it says " In this Agreement 'we', 'us' and 'our' means Sainsbury's Bank plc and any company, firm or person which we transfer any or all of our rights and duties to under this Agreement.."..this presumably was Blair Oliver, but if Blair Oliver then sell it on...then does the above still carry as it isn't Sainsbury's anymore is it ?

[Bill-K]

Re: Sainsbury's Bank Credit Card now with DLC

It looks like you've got a good grip on this, Jax. Yes - that is the 'assignment' clause you found in the T&C's, and Bleurgh, Codliver & Snott should have a Letter of Assignment - or a Deed of Assignment to signify this transfer of rights AND duties. I believe there may be a difference between the two (ie., Letter or Deed) - but this will need a better man than I to explain. There are one or two such fine specimens here, I believe !!!

As you have also surmised, the debt often gets sold to a DCA for 'pennies in the pound,' so there is scope for negotiation, and it may be worth considering an offer. Seeing as it's B, O & S who are dealing with this, then I think we have B.O.S. as the backing bank for this Sainsbury's card. If that be so, then B, O & S are simply BoS's in-house collectors, as far as I can make out. However, now it has been passed to DLC, then I expect the debt has actually been sold for a pittance, and is thus a little more negotiable. But - also - it may well be that they have not jumped through all the hoops that they should, and it may be worth pursuing them for their 'Letter/Deed of Assignation.'

[dogtired]

Re: Sainsbury's Bank Credit Card now with DLC

All horribly familiar! Bill ? As you know I am now with my third DC A via BOS and they still have not produced anything like a valid origanal document and had the wrong name on a supposed terms and conditions, which on its own, I think makes it invalid.
Good luck Jax!

[jax50]

Re: Sainsbury's Bank Credit Card now with DLC

It looks like you've got a good grip on this, Jax. Yes - that is the 'assignment' clause you found in the T&C's, and Bleurgh, Codliver & Snott should have a Letter of Assignment - or a Deed of Assignment to signify this transfer of rights AND duties. I believe there may be a difference between the two (ie., Letter or Deed) - but this will need a better man than I to explain. There are one or two such fine specimens here, I believe !!!

As you have also surmised, the debt often gets sold to a DCA for 'pennies in the pound,' so there is scope for negotiation, and it may be worth considering an offer. Seeing as it's B, O & S who are dealing with this, then I think we have B.O.S. as the backing bank for this Sainsbury's card. If that be so, then B, O & S are simply BoS's in-house collectors, as far as I can make out. However, now it has been passed to DLC, then I expect the debt has actually been sold for a pittance, and is thus a little more negotiable. But - also - it may well be that they have not jumped through all the hoops that they should, and it may be worth pursuing them for their 'Letter/Deed of Assignation.'

That brought a smile to my face this morning...thanks! . I will wait to see what happens to my requests for this from DLC. One thought is that if DLC are happy to receive £1 p/m for the past 2 years, they can't have paid very much for this can they ? Even if I live another 20 years they'll only have received £264 over that period, it will cost them more than that to manage it and dealing with my enquiries..Maybe they'll think about that and consider it not worth the trouble...

[Streetwise]

Re: Sainsbury's Bank Credit Card now with DLC

That brought a smile to my face this morning...thanks! . I will wait to see what happens to my requests for this from DLC. One thought is that if DLC are happy to receive £1 p/m for the past 2 years, they can't have paid very much for this can they ? Even if I live another 20 years they'll only have received £264 over that period, it will cost them more than that to manage it and dealing with my enquiries..Maybe they'll think about that and consider it not worth the trouble...

To make a C.C.A. request you have to pay a pound for the company to provide the information,as I understand it they have 14 days to reply to your request or the debt becomes UNENFORCEABLE,till they do.Send the letter recorded delivery and don't loose the receipt.

[Bill-K]

Re: Sainsbury's Bank Credit Card now with DLC

As Streetwise says, you can send a formal CCA s.77-79 request for a copy of the executed agreement, and if this is not complied with, they cannot enforce the debt until they do. However, they can still keep pestering you - they just can't take you to court !!!

[jax50]

Re: Sainsbury's Bank Credit Card now with DLC

All horribly familiar! Bill ? As you know I am now with my third DC A via BOS and they still have not produced anything like a valid origanal document and had the wrong name on a supposed terms and conditions, which on its own, I think makes it invalid.
Good luck Jax!

There is some comfort for me in knowing somebody else is dealing with B.O. & S., but don't suppose that helps you dogtired... have you stopped paying them and if so what was their reaction ?

I might be making more of the "In this Agreement 'we', 'us', and 'our'......." definition, but by virtue of the fact this only states .." ....which we transfer...." The 'we' doesn't say 'or any assignee , agent or company' or whatever..so to me that says the rights of the Agreement are not transferable by anyone else ? In which case DLC would have no assigned rights no matter how they acquired the account ? is this right ?

[Streetwise]

Re: Sainsbury's Bank Credit Card now with DLC

Do you have a letter of assignment.:beagle:

[dogtired]

Re: Sainsbury's Bank Credit Card now with DLC

There is some comfort for me in knowing somebody else is dealing with B.O. & S., but don't suppose that helps you dogtired... have you stopped paying them and if so what was their reaction ?

I might be making more of the "In this Agreement 'we', 'us', and 'our'......." definition, but by virtue of the fact this only states .." ....which we transfer...." The 'we' doesn't say 'or any assignee , agent or company' or whatever..so to me that says the rights of the Agreement are not transferable by anyone else ? In which case DLC would have no assigned rights no matter how they acquired the account ? is this right ?

Yes stopped paying them if you wish you can look at the thread about it, just about to write to Westcot again
http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...358#post280358

Seems BOS particularly Salisbury do not learn. Be sure to keep your receipt and send a postal order with your request.

[jax50]

Re: Sainsbury's Bank Credit Card now with DLC

Do you have a letter of assignment.:beagle:

No...

[jax50]

Re: Sainsbury's Bank Credit Card now with DLC

Yes stopped paying them if you wish you can look at the thread about it, just about to write to Westcot again
http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...358#post280358

Seems BOS particularly Salisbury do not learn. Be sure to keep your receipt and send a postal order with your request.

I would be interested to know if it was the OC who assigned this to the DCA's, or if one DCA sold it on to another and so on. Thinking a bit more about it, I would think the OC keeps 'control' of the account all the time maybe, and if a DCA has had enough, passes it back to the OC who then sells it on elsewhere ? The reason this question is important to me is that for the Agreement to hold water, the OC has to be in charge of the assigning in each case..as from what I read, the assigning is not transferrable.

[Streetwise]

Re: Sainsbury's Bank Credit Card now with DLC

Request the C.C.A. agreement from the last company that contacted you about the debt,( Template somewhere on this site ),remember to enclose a one pound postal order for the agreement,and send recorded delivery,see what if anything comes back,,there is a chance that the card taken out in 2002/2003 that they will not have an agreement.Do not sign anything on your letter to them for the C.C.A. agreement.