CCA Requests - any point?

I'm VERY happy to be shot down in flames over this question, but is there any point nowadays in sending a CCA request and why?

Recent judgements have allowed reconstituted agreements without signatures, saying that as the debtor had made a series of payments to the creditor they had effectively acknowledged the debt. It has made me wonder (though I still do it) WHY we send CCA requests as they seem a fairly insignificant piece of evidence nowadays.

I believe a CPR request forces them to admit whether they still have the orginal agreement, but again, if they can reconstitute it, does it matter?

If it is pointless what is the best procedure now. I've always (thanks to CB) successfully ignored first letter, then Pove It, then CCA, then often SAR, but depends what happened to the CCA - could have been placed in dispute, but again this seems a little pointless now as they can reconsititute a CCA with address details gleaned from anywhere lawfully, so placing an account in dispute is a bit of a waste of time, other than it should (but often doesn't) stop collection activity.

What am I missing?

[Curlyben]

Re: CCA Requests - any point?

A formal CCA request is still a very valid tool, especially with DCA's.
If gives a very strict time frame for them to comply/acknowledge, which can prove useful.

If you can get them to admit, in writing, that the original document is missing or unavailable then you have further ammo to use against them. This is normally enough to get a DCA off your back. At least until the OC sells in on again.

While Carey allows for recons to satisfy the CCA, should the actual need arise, you can force disclosure on them in court for the original documents.
Yes you need damn good arguments and a decent judge, but still worth a shot.

[The Debt Star]

Re: CCA Requests - any point?

I always seem to get copies of the CCA with my SAR requests as well.

[Curlyben]

Re: CCA Requests - any point?

Yep, even a simple Prove It sometimes gets them produced as well

[Chalkitup]

Re: CCA Requests - any point?

If you can get them to admit, in writing, that the original document is missing or unavailable then you have further ammo to use against them. This is normally enough to get a DCA off your back.

This has happened on two of my accounts and the OCs have stopped hounding me (for some time now) as they put in writing in response to CCA requests that they could not locate the original.

[mystery1]

Re: CCA Requests - any point?

Legal Beagles Consumer Forum

I would say it's a great tool if used correctly.

M1

[QCKate]

Re: CCA Requests - any point?

Legal Beagles Consumer Forum

I would say it's a great tool if used correctly.

M1

I agree. If theres not a compliant original then they would be daft to issue a court claim. My understanding is that is required?

QCK

[The Debt Star]

Re: CCA Requests - any point?

I agree. If theres not a compliant original then they would be daft to issue a court claim. My understanding is that is required?

QCK

I hate all this CCA stuff because its so darn complicated but my understanding is that this is not the case. They issue claims and repros turn up quite suddenly out of the blue! I stand to be corrected!

[Caspar]

Re: CCA Requests - any point?

I agree. If theres not a compliant original then they would be daft to issue a court claim. My understanding is that is required?

QCK

Hi Kate,

Again very happy to be shot down in flames.

Firstly it seems to be that we're using the CCA request more to get a DCA off our backs than to resolve the actual debt.

Secondly I'm not sure they do still need the original to go to court. They did, agreed, but I think there have been some cases recently that I've read (don't ask me to quote them cos I can't, but I know what I read) where a reconstituted agreement backed up by proof of payments being made has led the court to believe that as the debtor has willingly made these payments, they obviously knew there was an agreement in existence.

I think lack of CCA is useful as part of an argument, but is no longer an argument in itself in court. For getting rid of DCA's I agree it's still a useful tool.

Hopefully a useful issue to discuss in these rapidly changing times!

[QCKate]

Re: CCA Requests - any point?

Ive been doing some research Casper!!

What I understood was that a reconstit copy could satisfy a S78 request. But if a creditor were to issue a court claim against you for an alleged debt they would have to disclose the original signed agreement with all the prescribed terms etc to prove that you did sign agreement to those terms. I think thats what Wilson vs First County Trust in the Court of Appeal in 2001 was all about? You can find the whole judgement on the interweb but this the conclusion: -

Conclusion

50. We invite further submissions from the Secretary of State on the form of the declaration of incompatibility to be made. It may be of assistance, however, if we indicate our present view. We think that it would be appropriate to declare that, having regard to the terms prescribed by regulation 6(1) of, and schedule 6 to, the 1983 Regulations (S.I. 1983/1553), the provisions of section 127(3) of the 1974 Act, in so far as they prevent the court from making an enforcement order under section 65(1) of that Act unless a document containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement has been signed by the debtor or hirer, are incompatible with the rights guaranteed to the creditor or hirer by article 6(1) of the Convention and article 1 of the First Protocol.
51. We allow the appeal against the order made on 24 September 1999 for the reasons given in our interim judgments of 23 November 2000.

ORDER: Appeal allowed; declaration of incompatibility made; Judgment for claimant in the sum of £6,900.00. Defendant to pay applicants costs assessed at £1,354.36; Appeal to the House of Lords refused.



What Also VERY interesting I think is this from the man who actually drafted the law - Mr Francis Bennion Referring to this judgement He says "I included section 127(3) entirely on my own initiative. It seemed right to me that if the creditor company couldnt be bothered to ensure that all the prescribed terms were accurately included in the credit agreement it deserved to find it unenforceable and that the court should not have the power to relieve it from this penalty. I'm glad the House of Lords has now vindicated my reasoning and confirmed that nobody's human rights were infringed." His website has lots of useful stuff see Francis Bennion -

my heads hurting now!

QCK

:beagle:

[The Debt Star]

Re: CCA Requests - any point?

There was a thread recently on this. The creditor obtained judgement with a recon produced a few days before trial.

[Amethyst]

Re: CCA Requests - any point?

Francis Bennion also made some comments more recently that the way CMCs like Cartel were advertising using the CCA to force companies to write off debt on the back of minor technicalities wasn't what he had intended at all when drafting the CCA. (Bet people don't quote those comments in their defences lol).

I (we) have always advocated using the CCA to get DCAs to bugger off and enable you to get fair repayment terms with the creditors. The CCA is there to protect consumers and I fear that protection is being eradicated.

But have had hours and hours of writing about that lol so won't now.

[The Debt Star]

Re: CCA Requests - any point?

But have had hours and hours of writing about that lol so won't now.

It keeps cropping up and always will. People need reminders and also newbies are also interested in the current state of play.

Might I suggest that, as well as having sticky threads, that perhaps you save a model paragraph and cut and paste that onto each new thread as it comes along? Newbs are less likely to explore stickies anyway.

[Amethyst]

Re: CCA Requests - any point?

Relevant bit of Bennions article following the Rankines Judgment

''This sort of thing was not what was intended by those responsible for the enactment of the CCA. As Judge Mason points out, the Act was introduced to protect the individual who is unsophisticated in financial affairs and contracts with unscrupulous and sophisticated financial institutions. ‗It was not designed to help individuals in the financial services business make money out of financial institutions through exploiting its undoubted technicalities.‘ Well that was rather what I thought too, having I fear created many of the said technicalities.

Read more at: F Bennion - 21 April 2009 - ''not quite what one intended'' - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum ''

[Crispybacon]

Re: CCA Requests - any point?

I have only used a CCA request on one occasion against MBNA and my answer to the question of is there any point is a big resounding

YES!!!!!!!!!

MBNA were harrassing my DW to the point of tears and were refusing to enter into any dialogue on helping her with her financial situation. Like Supermac9's thread they encouraged her to take out further borrowing to pay her arrears, asked her to borrow money off friends/family etc, not to mention threatening to force a sale of our house, and things like "You wouldn't want your kids on the street".

One CCA request later, and we now have acknowledgement in writing from MBNA that they cannot reproduce an agreement and that the agreement is unenforceable (however they will continue with collection activity etc).

A couple of exchanged letters later, DW now no longer gets any phone calls, MBNA have completely backed off and have frozen interest and charges and agreed to the monthly payment that was originally offered.

So why didn't they just do this in the first place? I am sure it's no coincidence!

IMO use CCA wisely and in context of how you want to deal with your debt. If you're looking for some 'quick win' to write off your debts or just to get out of paying back what you owe I think you're likely to get a spanking (though I'm sure they are still plenty of genuinely unenforceable agreements still out there).

If you're in financial difficulty and are trying to deal with your debts, such as through a debt management plan I think its a far more useful tool to get leverage over a creditor who is being unreasonable, in breach of OFT guidelines etc and as has already been said puts the nasty DCA's back in your place when they start threatening court action.

I do find Bennions quote though quite amusing.

Crispy