Legality- On Consumer credit Licence

[The Tinkerman]

Hi All

All I wanted to ascertain here is if a DCA has been named say (A) to buy and collect a debt via an absolute assignment, should they have held a Consumer Credit License in the name (A) in order to do so (yes or no), and if they did not, can they collect a debt under a different name that did hold a Consumer Credit License at the time it was bought if the MD owns or part owns both companies (yes or no)

I emailed the OFT regarding this matter and they emailed me back and said "that they no authority to become involved in individual disputes between consumers and traders so we are unable to advise or help you" ?

Personally I thought that was a legitimate request classed as general information and can apply to any organization as to whether they can or they cannot from a legal point of view? and I though this would have been covered by the Freedom of Information Act anyway.

[Amethyst]

Re: Legality- 0n Consumer credit Licence

You have worded the question in a bit of a complex way. Did you mention the company names ?

You can ask them if X company has a credit licence.

Or you can ask them if 'trading as' companies are able to trade under their parent companies credit licence.

Or if an individual holds a consumer credit licence if it carrys over that any company he is a director of is covered under that licence.

If it helps, it isnt necessary to have a CCL to buy a debt. It is to collect on it. SO if your company purchased a bunch of debts, then applied for a CCL and it was granted, then collected on those debts, thats fine.


I really do usually find it easier just to ask if X has one/had one on x/xx/xxxx

Who are the companies, I don't mind having a go at finding out for you.

Its more opinion than fact from the OFTs viewpoint even if general and they wouldnt comment without the facts. I'd just ask them the names. I reported a company the other week for seeming to have no CCL (and undertaking debt management activities), and they replied a couple weeks later confirming that was the case, they werent covered by any individuals CCL, and they are now being investigated.

[pt2537]

Re: Legality- 0n Consumer credit Licence

if the Debt purchaser has a consumer credit licence to carry out collection activities then they can do so without committing an offence.

If they do not hold a licence then to take part in licensable activities without a licence is a criminal offence pursuant to part 30 of the CCA 1974

[Caspar]

Re: Legality- 0n Consumer credit Licence

if the Debt purchaser has a consumer credit licence to carry out collection activities then they can do so without committing an offence.

If they do not hold a licence then to take part in licensable activities without a licence is a criminal offence pursuant to part 30 of the CCA 1974

However, they can purchase the debt without a license, but can only enforce it with a license.

[pt2537]

Re: Legality- 0n Consumer credit Licence

ahh not really,

if they are updating a credit reference agy then they need a licence

[The Tinkerman]

Re: Legality- 0n Consumer credit Licence

Okay everyone here goes what do you make of this muck of nettles.


I have paid this CCJ religiously for the past 10 years and have never missed a payment but what I would like to ascertain is:

1, I am paying the right people.

2, did these Debt Collection Agencies have a Consumer Credit Licence when they bought the Judgement Debt.

3, has the sale of this judgement Debt on both occasions been done legally or illegally.

What has triggered my suspicions off is that this second Debt Collection Agency whom now preside under the name Merit Finance Limited has taken me back to Court eight years after so called buying this debt back in October 2002 to ask first be substituted as the new claimant ( WHICH WAS GRANTED) this year after only receiving a copy of their application the day before the hearing so I had no time to form any form of defence secondly they are now asking for a variation order to up my payments and are also adding 8 % statutory interest from the day the Judgement was granted back in September 2000 which was neither asked for by the Original Creditor or granted on the Original Judgement.


My suspicions have been aroused by both Merits application and witness statement that they have provided me with, on the front of their application it states the Claimants name as the Original Creditor Imperial Consolidated Financiers Limited which if it has been sold twice you would presume that it would be in the name of the previous DCA whom called bought the Judgement debt.
Now in their witness statement it states word for word as follows.

“Imperial Consolidated Financiers Limited obtained a Judgement against the defendant on the 19th Sept 2000 under an Agreement dated the 2nd November 2001 the Claimant assigned the right to collect various debts including this one to Orion Asset Finance Limited, On 24th October 2001 Orion Asset Finance Limited changed its name to ICF Loans Limited.

By way of a further agreement dated 1st October 2002 ICF Loans Limited assigned the right to collect various debts to Ronald Francis Higgins. On the same day Ronald Francis Higgins assigned the right to collect various debts to RFH Limited.

RFH Limited changed its name to Premium Financial Services Limited on the 13 September 2004; Premium Financial Services Limited then changed its name to Merit Finance Limited on the 17th September 2004.

Notice of Assignment on each occasion was sent to the defendant at his last known address”.

Now my suspicions are based on the fact that:

A, I was never informed that this debt had been sold or assigned from the Original Creditor Imperial Consolidated Financiers to Orion Asset Finance Limited whom then conveniently had a name change to ICF Loans Limited which in short is the name of the Original creditor? So have they therefore sold this Judgement Debt to themselves? Even the Judge brought this up at the first Hearing and their solicitor could not answer her, and when I asked them for a copy of this first assignment (which by the way they stated that I has received in their witness statement) their solicitor stated "that as the claimant was not a party to this assignment my client is not in possession of any assignment notices that were sent at the time", personally I thought they would have had to have a copy of the assignment notice to buy this Judgment Debt to prove that all the relevant documents had been sent to me.

B, now you will also see from Merit Finance Limited witness statement that the debt was sold to Orion Asset Finance Limited on the 2 November 2001 yet some 7 days beforehand on the 24th of October it called had a name change to ICF Loans Limited? Again the Judge brought this up in the first Hearing with their solicitor whom stated “the Claimant was not involved in this transaction and is therefore not aware of a reason for the discrepancy in the dates, but the fact that Orion’s Company number is the same company number as on the change of name certificate to ICF Loans Limited, is good enough proof and that it was a simple error made by the parties involved”.


Personally I think there is more to this than meets the eye especially after reading that the Original Creditor Imperial Consolidated Financiers Limited went into administration in June 2002 just six months after 7.3 million pounds worth of contracts including mine was sold to a company which after the name change from Orion Asset Finance Limited to ICF Loans Limited bears the same initials as the Original Creditor Imperial Consolidated Financiers just too much of a coincidence for me, and from what I have read the Serious Fraud Office have been investigating their directors for all sorts of stuff, that was up until this year to which the outcome was that the Director of Imperial Consolidated Financiers was jailed for three and a half years in August for his part in a global fraud conspiracy.


Now the first sale from the Original Creditor Imperial Consolidated Financiers to Orion Asset Finance Limited took place on the 2nd of November 01 but I cannot find any such company as holding a Consumer Credit Licence ever, now if you look under Company house their registration number comes up as 04172715 which does state that they had a name change to ICF Loans Limited on the 24th October 2001, now ICF Loans appears as a trading name under several different companies, on the Pubic Register is shows up under the Original Creditors Name Imperial Consolidated Financiers Limited as an (historic) trading name, it also shows up under Booker Montague Leasing Limited as (historic) which also holds the name of Mr Lincoln Julian Fraser whom was also a director of Imperial Consolidated Financiers Limited? It also shows up under a company called BN Finance Limited from the 22 November 2002, then it appears again under Booker Montague Leasing as a trading name from the 28th September 2006 to which I believe they then changed their name to Booker Management Services Limited.


Therefore my question is when this Judgement debt was sold on the 2nd of November 2001 did or should Orion Asset Finance Limited have held a Consumer Credit Licence when this Judgement Debt was bought by them and if not then should this Judgement debt have been sold and therefore have they acted illegally.

From what I can make out ICF Loans Limited did hold a Consumer Credit Licence at the time of the sale but would this be valid anyway In light of the fact that it clearly states in the claimants witness statement that it was first sold to a company called Orion Asset Finance Limited and not ICF Loans Limited and therefore should Orion Asset Finance Limited have had a Consumer Credit licence in their name on the date this was bought to allow them to collect this Judgement debt.



My suspicions regarding the second sale of assignment from ICF Loans Limited to RFH Ltd are as follows:
1, Granted I did receive a copy of this assignment from a company called Facility Trading Services Limited but only received it in August 2003, where they informed me that the sale had actually taken place on the 1st of October 2002 as follows:
“We act on behalf of RFH Limited who has instructed us with regards to your default under the loan agreement entered into by you with Imperial Consolidated Financiers Limited.

Take note that by assignments dated 1st October 2002 ICF Loans Limited assigned to RFH Limited absolutely all amounts due under this agreement & our client is now entitled to the sum due and outstanding”.

Then RFH Limited became Merit Finance Limited in October 2004 via a name change, now if you look under Ronald Francis Higgins whom is the Director of this company on the Public Register it comes up with both Facility Trading Services Limited and Merit Finance Limited yet no mention of a company called RFH Limited to whom this debt was called sold to.

Also if you look under their company house registered number which is 04538853 you will see that in fact their name was Lee Partners Limited when they state this debt was bought on the 1st October 2002 and then on the 10/10/2002 it then became Lee And Co (uk) Ltd and not until the 04/07/2003 did it then become RFH Limited?

Now from what I can see on the Public Register, Facility Trading Services limited held a Consumer Credit Licence during that period if I am reading it correctly but that was not the company who called bought this Judgement debt, they just stated that they were acting on behalf of RFH Limited.

Therefore my question is when this Judgement debt was bought for a second time on the 1st of October 2002 did or should RFH Limited have held a Consumer Credit Licence on that date and if not then should this Judgement debt have been sold and have they acted illegally bearing in mind that according to Company House records it only became RFH Limited on the 4th of July 2003 anyway.

Phew!!!!

So does all this look and sound above board to you all, and would you say that both sales of this Judgement Debt have been bought and sold legally, personally I have the distinct impression that I am trying to be shafted by this DCA Merit Finance Limited and this Ronald Francis Higgins whom seems to be a one man band and is out to get as much money off me as he can.

I did run it by Consumer Direct as well but they said it was out of their league.

[paulb2905]

Re: Legality- 0n Consumer credit Licence

Public Register

[Caspar]

Re: Legality- 0n Consumer credit Licence

I don't see this as a complicated issue. Anyone can buy a debt. Let's say I buy your debt under the name Caspar Finance. I am perfectly entitled to buy and own the debt.

If I want to enforce the debt and collect it then Caspar Finance has to have a Consumer Credit Licence.

It is perfectly legal therefore to own a debt and buy debts without a CCL, but in order to enforce it you must have a CCL. Does this help?

[The Tinkerman]

Re: Legality- 0n Consumer credit Licence

First DCA NAMED Orion Asset Ltd who bought debt collected on it, second DCA NAMED AS RFH LTD who the bought debt in October 2002 has collected on it ever since,but if you look under company house you will see that in fact their name was Lee Partners Limited when they state this debt was bought on the 1st October 2002 and then on the 10/10/2002 it then became Lee And Co (uk) Ltd and not until the 04/07/2003 did it then become RFH Limited? after that they had a further name change to Merit Finance Limited.

My point being if who ever is NAMED as buying the debt to enforce it or collect it do they have to have a CCL IN THEIR NAME, as the second DCA whom bought it was named as RFH Limited but I cannot see anywhere on the public register that they have ever held a CCL although a company called Facility Trading Services Limited whom stated where acting on behalf of RFH Limited did hold a CCL at the time.

[Caspar]

Re: Legality- On Consumer credit Licence

Taken from the site below. At last you seem to have a definitive answer to your question, and as long as they were trading associates, yes they can legally collect your debt.







http://www.affiliates4u.com/forums/f...t-licence.html



Consumer credit Licence

I have been asked to expand on the explanation on the CCL (Consumer Credit Licence), so here goes!

Just for the record, a Consumer Credit Licence is issued to an individual or company in order to trade in the finance industry. The holder of the CCL may add trading names to their licence.

For example: Fred Bloggs Finance Ltd trading as fredbloggsloans.com. Fred Bloggs Finance Ltd could also add bloggloans.com or even anyfinance.com to his trading names if he so wished.

As long as the Fred Bloggs Finance Ltd trading names are part of Fred Bloggs Ltd then there is no problem. What you can NOT have is two separate companies trading under the same CCL. Fred Bloggs Finance Ltd can NOT let any other organization trade under their CCL, thus:

Fred Bloggs Finance Ltd can NOT let ABC Finance Ltd, or their trading styles, trade under the Fred Bloggs Ltd CCL

[The Tinkerman]

Re: Legality- On Consumer credit Licence

Okay thanks

so please bear with me on this, taking the above into account I received a letter heading from a Company called

Facility Trading Services Limited but only received it in August 2003, where they informed me that the sale had actually taken place on the 1st of October 2002 as follows:
“We act on behalf of RFH Limited who has instructed us with regards to your default under the loan agreement entered into by you with Imperial Consolidated Financiers Limited.

Take note that by assignments dated 1st October 2002 ICF Loans Limited assigned to RFH Limited absolutely all amounts due under this agreement & our client is now entitled to the sum due and outstanding and they have retained the same solicitor and my monthly payments should carry on going to the solicitor.

So from that RFH Limited had bought the debt and have been collecting it since the 1st October 2002 yet if you look for the registration number on Company House 04538853 you will see not until the 04/07/2003 did it then become RFH Limited? and if you look the registration number up on the public register there is nothing on their appertaining to a Company called RFH Limited.

Now if you look up Facility Trading Services Limited who anyway only stated “We act on behalf of RFH Limited on company house it comes up with registration number 03689222 and no sign of anything appertaining to RFH Limited trading name or not, and if you put the registration number in the public register although Facility Trading Services Limited did have a CCL at the time of the sale they were not the ones who bought the debt or collect on it.

so let me fill in the fred blogg bit from your post to see if you agree or disagree.

Quote; As long as Facility Trading Services Limited name are part of RFH Limited then there is no problem (which from what I can see they are not). What you can NOT have is two separate companies trading under the same CCL. Facility Trading Services Limited can NOT let any other organization trade under their CCL, thus:

Facility Trading Services Limited can NOT let RFH Limited or their trading styles, trade under the Facility Trading Services Limited CCL

Thus: would you agree that as per company house and the public register these are two separate companies and that although Facility Trading Services Limited had a CCL at the time of the sale on the 1st October 2002;

1,They were not the ones who bought the debt or collected on it.

2, Facility Trading Services Limited had no such trading name as RFH Limited.

3, RFH Limited were part of a different company who's name did not even appear on company house records until 04/07/2003.

4.The only link between as I can establish between both companies is if you put the directors name in the public house records as Ronald Francis Higgins which in short stands for RHF Limited it shows he is or was involved in both companies Facility Trading Services Limited and RHF Limited whom are now Merit Finance Limited whether or no this makes a difference I do not know.

5, I have even got a copy of the deed of assignment that states it was sold to RFH Limited on the 1st October 2002.

Agree or Disagree any thoughts please.

[Caspar]

Re: Legality- On Consumer credit Licence

Okay thanks


so let me fill in the fred blogg bit from your post to see if you agree or disagree.

Quote; As long as Facility Trading Services Limited name are part of RFH Limited then there is no problem (which from what I can see they are not). What you can NOT have is two separate companies trading under the same CCL. Facility Trading Services Limited can NOT let any other organization trade under their CCL, thus:

Facility Trading Services Limited can NOT let RFH Limited or their trading styles, trade under the Facility Trading Services Limited CCL

Thus: would you agree that as per company house and the public register these are two separate companies and that although Facility Trading Services Limited had a CCL at the time of the sale on the 1st October 2002;

1,They were not the ones who bought the debt or collected on it.

2, Facility Trading Services Limited had no such trading name as RFH Limited.

3, RFH Limited were part of a different company who's name did not even appear on company house records until 04/07/2003.

4.The only link between as I can establish between both companies is if you put the directors name in the public house records as Ronald Francis Higgins which in short stands for RHF Limited it shows he is or was involved in both companies Facility Trading Services Limited and RHF Limited whom are now Merit Finance Limited whether or no this makes a difference I do not know.

5, I have even got a copy of the deed of assignment that states it was sold to RFH Limited on the 1st October 2002.

Agree or Disagree any thoughts please.

1. Agree, but had an assignment taken place by August 2003 which is when they contacted you.

2. Without checking, willing to take your word on this one, so yes.

3. This is the critical bit. If RFH Ltd didn't appear on Companies House register until July 4th 2003, how could they have been assigned the debt? Is it possible to be a company without being registered with companies house? There is no reason why if they existed they couldn't be assigned the debt, but they could not collect it without a CCL. They did not try to collect it as far as I understand until you heard from Facility Trading Services Ltd who were licensed to collect the debt.

4. Also critical. If the CCL was granted to Ronald Francis Higgins as an individual, he has the right to add trading names to his license.

5. How can you have a Deed of Assignment to a company that did not exist at that time.

I totally understand your confusion, but the way I'm thinking the vitally important thing is who holds the CCL license, the individual or the company? If it's the individual and he's linked to all the other companies mentioned he is probably within his rights (unsure about how it could be sold to RFH if they didn't exist though, hence my question can you be a limited company without being registered at Companies House?

Very complex, but you might just have a case there somewhere. Try to find out who has been granted the CCL (individual or company?) and whether RFH Ltd could have legally existed in 2002 without being registered at Companies House? If the license was granted to the company I think you have a case. If the license was granted to the individual but RFH could not legally have existed in 2002 I think you have a case. In any other circumstance I suspect you don't.

Phew.... I'm not surprised not many have replied to this. What a mess!

[The Tinkerman]

Re: Legality- On Consumer credit Licence

Tell me about it


1, I received a copy of this assignment from a company called Facility Trading Services Limited but only received it in August 2003, where they informed me that the sale had actually taken place on the 1st of October 2002 as follows:
“We act on behalf of RFH Limited who has instructed us with regards to your default under the loan agreement entered into by you with Imperial Consolidated Financiers Limited.

Take note that by assignments dated 1st October 2002 ICF Loans Limited assigned to RFH Limited absolutely all amounts due under this agreement & our client is now entitled to the sum due and outstanding”.

So one would say by that RFH Limited have been collecting this debt from 1st October 2002 even though they only let me know via Facility Trading Services Limited in August 2003

3, Name & Registered Office:
MERIT FINANCE LIMITED
OAK GREEN LODGE
THE COMMON
HARTLEY WINTNEY
HAMPSHIRE
RG27 8RZ
Company No. 04538853

Previous Names:
Date of change Previous Name
17/09/2004 PREMIUM FINANCIAL SERVICES LIMITED
10/10/2002 LEE PARTNERS LIMITED
04/07/2003 LEE AND CO (UK) LTD
13/09/2004 RFH LIMITED



4, put his name in on public register Ronald Francis Higgins it comes up with the following:


Licence / Application / Validation Order No Licensee / Applicant Name Licence Status PPB Postcode
0388440 Shortfall Administration Services Ltd. Lapsed on 13/01/2000 KT5 9NN
0473472 Facility Trading Services Limited Lapsed on 24/11/2004 GU15 4BE
0504127 Knowle Portfolio Investments Limited Current SO15 2AE
0520408 Facility Trading Services (North) Limited Lapsed on 08/06/2007 LS11 9BH
0522547 Asset Recovery Corporation Limited Lapsed on 26/07/2007 GU11 1SS
0541569 Merit Finance Limited Lapsed on 15/08/2008 GU14 7LP
0543864 Phoenix Collections (UK) Limited Lapsed on 11/10/2008 GU13 4BE
0544014 R-2-O Group Ltd. Historic GU51 4BE
0621551 Merit Finance Limited Current RG27 8RZ

Surely these are all companies not trading names?

5, It states on the Deed of Assignment and I quote this deed of Assignment is made on the1st October 2002.

A. Ronald Francis Higgins of --------- ------ --------- ------ address

B. RFH Limited (Company No 04538853)WHICH IS SAME REG NO AS MERIT FINANCE ABOVE with its registered office at 154a Fleet Road, Fleet, Hampshire GU1 4BE

What do you think.

[Caspar]

Re: Legality- On Consumer credit Licence

Did RFH actually take money from you or demand money from you between 2002 and August 2003?

I notice from an earlier post you mentioned you had been paying this debt for a long time (10 years?) without missing a payment. Who were you making the payments to?

I'd still like to know who holds the CCL - the company or the individual as this could be very important.

I'd also like to know if a debt can legally be assigned to a company that does not exist. From what I've read since posting a limited company has to register with Companies House (but don't take that as 100% true - it is my understanding at the moment).

The last question answers itself surely - if the company was not registered with Companies House so didn't legally exist it could not be assigned a debt as there was no company to assign it to.

As regards trading names, these people are very clever/devious so they could well all be trading names.

Which leads us onto the next bit:
IF the debt was assigned to a non existant company who owns it? Is it owed?

IF you have been paying monies for a lengthy period of time to someone, what has happened to that money and where is it now? If it turns out to be unlawful, can you reclaim anything paid since 2002/3?

[Amethyst]

Re: Legality- On Consumer credit Licence

They are the same company just had some name changes which doesnt affect the CCL being valid.

The main thing is if Ronald's CCL covers the company.