Does CCJ enforce a debt with no COA

[thephoenix]

Hi all.

Still doing an amazing job I see

I have a query.... does an issued CCJ, enforce a debt that the creditor/ debt collection agency verbally admits that no COA excits????? (they don't have one)

This so called legitimate CCJ was issued at the end of 2007 at an address where the defendant no longer lived or had knowledge that a claim had been issued.

Also, the cost's that the solicitors have added to the debt, effectively doubles the amount owed.
We requested the relevant information (dated 16th Oct 2009) but only garbage has been sent. No agreement, no key financial information, no correct statement of account etc.

She has spoken to the agency involved today and demanded they comply with the original request and that she will apply to the court to have judgement set aside, although not sure about the time frame, CCJ issued end of 2007.

Any guidance from your good selves would be ace.

phoe masbeagle

[MIKE770]

Re: Does CCJ enforce a debt with no COA

bump

[Amy]

Re: Does CCJ enforce a debt with no COA

When did she discover she had a CCJ against her for this debt?

[thephoenix]

Re: Does CCJ enforce a debt with no COA

Hi Amy

all this happened whilst she was fleeing an abusive marriage so unfortunately dates etc are not fresh in her mind.
After speaking to the agency involved today, they advised her that they were passed the file in June 2007, sent first letter in August 2007 (she was not living at address the letter was sent to). Sent another letter to same address in August 2007. September applied for CCJ .... deemed served 14th Sept, never recieved notice. No response from pam so judgement was passed as default and CCJ was issued.
She has been told she signed an acknowledgement to pay £20 a fortnight to keep them quiet back in April 2008 which she has paid ever since.

The lack of agreement has come to light because I asked her to request a statement of account and agreement etc to see how much has been paid plus amount outstanding as I didn't want her to be paying over the odds.

so in answer to your question, she must of been informed of CCJ when the £20 a fortnight agreement was set up, 7 months after CCJ issued.

[LuggerBugs]

Re: Does CCJ enforce a debt with no COA

So she wasn't living at the address the court papers were sent to?

Grounds for a set aside, if so. And if they want to come back for a second go, no CCA = S127(3).

[thephoenix]

Re: Does CCJ enforce a debt with no COA

yes thats correct luggerbugs.
but it was the address they had on file so where else would they send it.

The CCJ was issued a while back so was not sure of time frame allowed for set aside.

Once the CCJ is set aside, Which i hope it can be, the next thing would be another trip to court (thats if they wanna go back, as you say, no CCA) and if they don't issue another claim, what would happen to the money she has already paid? I think it would be better if they did go back for court to request the money paid to be refunded but it's an iffy subject.

Question about the CCJ setaside. If it is set aside, does anyone know what happens to the initial cost's added (by the solicitors for various rip of things)??? Would the account be in the same state it was before the intervention of legal action???? ie... balance of account as of sept 2007 less payments made since then??


The agreement is a hire agreement regulated by the CCA 1974, under the Home Computing Initiative Agreement from the Leicestershire Partnership NHS Trust.
It basically allows you the use of a home computer whilst paying a monthly fee which they deduct from your salary over a 36 monthly period. Then when the 36 months are up you give the computer back. or (i think) you can purchase the computer under a separate agreement for £60.

Sounds well bizzare...... There are also parts of the T&C's that seem a bit iffy.
Like .......
s.13.4 Third Party Rights A person who is not a party to this agreement has no right under the Contracts (right of third parties) Act 1999 to enforce any term of this agreement'.

There is no mention in the T&C's expressing the rights or duties to any third parties. (unless it refers to CCA 1974????)

Plus... 'termination of employment from Trust (you need to be employed by an NHS Trust to obtain this) allows the trust to deduct the final outstanding balance from your last salary'...... they failed to do this when she handed in her notice, they had plenty of opportunity to do so.

The terms and conditions make.... lets say a painful read. I do have them if anyone is interested.......lol

Thanks

[LuggerBugs]

Re: Does CCJ enforce a debt with no COA

Doesn't matter wat address they had on file, the fact remains that they obtained a judgement due to the fact that she had no idea that there was anything to defend.

Even if there was no realistic prospect of defending the action, she wasn't afforded the opportunity to do so. So at the very least, the judgement would be set aside, and there would be a chance for them to try again.

But I'd suggest that, since they knew full well they had no chance of success, they would have made no attempt to ascertain that she still lived there. And so went ahead in full knowledge that their claim would be a simple rubber stamp exercise.

[Amy]

Re: Does CCJ enforce a debt with no COA

She has been told she signed an acknowledgement to pay £20 a fortnight to keep them quiet back in April 2008 which she has paid ever since.

Personally, I think you will struggle to get a set-aside as she's been paying this off for 19 months.

Not receiving the paperwork from the court is a valid reason for a set-aside, but the time to apply for this would have been when she received the paperwork that she signed in April 2008 and agreed to pay £20 a fortnight.

[thephoenix]

Re: Does CCJ enforce a debt with no COA

Hi.... IF we apply to have this set aside, who then picks up the legal fee's??

not only for the previous action but also for any future action.
I would of thought the previous fee's would at least be looked at by the court (under our request) and any future fee's, the claiment may well request these be paid for by the defendant....???????

Thats if we apply for set aside and that if they are willing to go back to court.

It's a case of weighing up the cost's.

You never know, they may cave in due to no CCA and request the CCJ be removed and refund all monies paid :tinysmile_hmm_t2::tinysmile_hmm_t2::tinysmile_hmm _t2:

[thephoenix]

Re: Does CCJ enforce a debt with no COA

Not receiving the paperwork from the court is a valid reason for a set-aside, but the time to apply for this would have been when she received the paperwork that she signed in April 2008 and agreed to pay £20 a fortnight.

Yes Amy i agree, would of been the better option but at the time she was in no fit state of mind to handle anynmore hassle.

[thephoenix]

Re: Does CCJ enforce a debt with no COA

I'll just keep adding bits to this :tinysmile_twink_t2:

Cost's added to the balance. But I do know that bailiff's cost's cannot be enforced by the courts (only the original debt) So why are they paying them selves first and then forwarding what's left of the fortnightly payment to the original creditor?????

Just gonna add these cost's to the thread. If any one has any comments on what these cost's are or the amount they are charging then feel free.

Amount of Judgement.................1559.44
Fixed cost of judgement.................30.00
execution costs.............................101.75
accrued interest............................234.25
-------------
Due claimant.......total................1925.42

Enforement officers fees. HCEO regulations 2004

Percentage fee.................................50.63
Mileage fee.......................................43.67
Seizure fee.........................................2.00 (no contact with defendant)
Enquiry fee.........................................4.00
walking possession fee..................172.68 (no contact with defendant)
enforcement under fee...................306.52
No sale inventory fee.......................96.27
Disbursement under fee..................131.24

VAT............................................... ...121.05
-------------
TOTAL ENFORCEMENT FEE 928.07
DUE CLAIMANT 1925.42
------------
TOTAL £2853.49

Current daily interest .........................0.29

Payments so far..............................800.01

Where payments of £20 per fortnight is going.

Payment £20 ............ £15 to client ............ 4.35 to fee's ........... 0.65 to VAT on fee's

Total paid to client £538.00

Disbursements ( i assume paid so far)

enforcements...................................... ..352.50
case set up fee .....................................13.80
instalement arrangement set up fee.....103.50
DVLA & HPI search fee.............................8.63
Broken arrangement fee ........................25.00 (which they have admitted there was no broken arrangement)

A lot of info I know but any comments on the fee's would also help.

[Kafka]

Re: Does CCJ enforce a debt with no COA

The lack of a valid credit agreement is overriden by a CCJ if not challenged at the time. You can add this in to a setaside application as support, but really it doesn't cut much mustard with a court after the event.

Non-receipt of papers is far stronger grounds, but there are other isues as mentioned above that might even jeopardise this.

[Centium5000]

Re: Does CCJ enforce a debt with no COA

Disbursements ( i assume paid so far)

enforcements...................................... ..352.50
case set up fee .....................................13.80
instalement arrangement set up fee.....103.50
DVLA & HPI search fee.............................8.63
Broken arrangement fee ........................25.00 (which they have admitted there was no broken arrangement)

A lot of info I know but any comments on the fee's would also help.

Hmmm. I see a DVLA & HPI search fee.

I wonder if this was prior to the CCJ or as a result? If it was prior and this was to establish whereabouts, might they have knowingly served to the wrong address to avoid it being contested?

Might be worth asking for a copy of the invoice for those searches, see what the date was.

Just a thought.

Other than that, what Kafka said...

The lack of a valid credit agreement is overriden by a CCJ if not challenged at the time. You can add this in to a setaside application as support, but really it doesn't cut much mustard with a court after the event.

Non-receipt of papers is far stronger grounds, but there are other isues as mentioned above that might even jeopardise this.

[thephoenix]

Re: Does CCJ enforce a debt with no COA

Thanks

but there are other isues as mentioned above that might even jeopardise this.

Kafka.....You referring to the acceptance in payments of £20 per fortnight.mmmmmm
Surely the fact that, so far, NO LEGAL papers exist in the legal right to collect on this debt whether someone makes payments on it or not is irrelevant otherwise anyone could lean on an other person to pay them money without any agreement in place...... racket spring to mind.

What are the thoughts on the ' third party rights' in the agreement :tinysmile_aha_t:

Did the NHS trust have any rights in passing this agreement on to a 'third party' in the first place?

Centium5000.... good point, although we have requested COA (with no agreement as yet) it would be worth sending SAR to include ALL relevant information.

My concern is, NO agreement No debt. No debt NO CCJ, NO CCJ NO payments.

I have always believed in paying what you owe according to UK law. And the companies have to abide by the same laws so, an eye for an eye in my book.

Any further thoughts

[Kafka]

Re: Does CCJ enforce a debt with no COA

My understanding is that the lack of a valid credit agreement is fundamental to fighting a CCJ as it challenges the right of action. however, if you get the CCJ, then that effectively overrides the lack of agreement. Courts argue that you should have contested the agreement at the time and now that a CCJ is in place that is basically that. They won't set the CCJ aside solely on the agreement issue.

In reality - of course - you can point out that the Practice Directions require a copy of the agreement to be attached to the claim where it is based on an agreement, and here is a section from a POC that I have yet to file against a DCA.

By failing to attach a copy of the credit agreement to the particulars of claim, the Defendant failed to adhere to Practice Directive 16, as follows.

7.3 Where a claim is based upon a written agreement:
(1) a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or
served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing, and
(2) any general conditions of sale incorporated in the contract should also be attached (but where the contract is or the documents constituting the agreement are bulky this practice direction is complied with by attaching or serving only the relevant parts of the contract or documents).

Despite this the courts don't insist on it and don't seem to bothered in most cases.