ID theft denied by RBS

[Wirdy]

Hello, my first post on here, so good day to everyone :tinysmile_twink_t2:
Maybe some people can help with some advice on my situation.

I'm helping a 76 yr old neighbour with her finances following her husbands death in January. She's in a right pickle tbh.
In short, during the past 17 years, he committed identity fraud and obtained three credit cards in her name, without her knowledge & spent on them. 2 are from RBS 1 is from MBNA. This all came to light following his death as january's statements came in & he couldn't intercept them anymore!

Her total debt stands at just under £18k. He died with 5 other credit cards in his own name with over £20k on them too. Although there is about £65k equity left in a house.

Have done the good stuff like contacting the card issuers (MBNA and RBS) to inform them. informed the action fraud line and got a crime reference number. No relpy from MBNA yet but RBS have telephoned and said they do not consider it to be fraud since the two cards they issued were taken out in 1999 and 2009.
My initial advice to my neighbour is that if she is willing to fight, possibly also defending a Court action, she shoukld dispute the debts and not pay them.
She is willing to swear in Court that she knew nothing about these cards and that they were obtained fraudulently.

What makes it difficult is proving identity theft by a spouse who is no longer here to account for their actions.

He also changed her house to joint names and took up a lifetime motgage without her knowledge or consent, £33k cash sum taken up in 2005, that now stands at £78k. There is about £65k equity left in a house, although its decreasing each month with the interest being rolled up on the lifetime mortgage. I reralise fighting that is a losing battle though. Could take years and even if we win, they'd want the money back, which she hasn't got.

I will assist her all the way, as she is the wronged party in all this.
Am I giving her good advice?

[EXC]

Re: ID theft denied by RBS

Unless you've already done so I would assist your neighbour in making Subject Access Requests to MBNA and RBS for which they should provide all the information they hold on her, which should include the credit agreements and importantly the signatures.

No relpy from MBNA yet but RBS have telephoned and said they do not consider it to be fraud since the two cards they issued were taken out in 1999 and 2009.

Can you expand on this?

[Amethyst]

Re: ID theft denied by RBS

A Subject Access Request (or at least a request for copies of documents ) from the Land Registry and the Mortgage company is also in order.

Does she have any idea why he needed all this extra money / where it went etc?

[Wirdy]

Re: ID theft denied by RBS

Thank you EXC & Amethyst. I'd thought about a SAR, but didn't know what additional info it would give us. I've done a Experian statutory report request just to make sure there aren't any more skeletons in the closet.
I was told by the man who phoned from the RBS Fraud dept that they wouldn't have the original signed credit agreement after all this time. Will this be an advantage? Is the debt enforceable without this?
As far as the house is concerned, please follow my logic here - the aims we have are to keep the roof over her head (even if the entire equity is eaten up) & reduce the debts for my neighbour as much as possible. Even in the best case scenario of the Land Registry accepting that the house was put in joint names fraudulently, and the mortgage being obtained fraudulently, and they waive ALL the mortgage interest added over the past 11 years, there would still be the lump sum of £33k to pay them back? She hasn't got this, so would need to sell the house to repay it. This defeats the object, despite my absolute disgust that a £33K lump sum lifetime mortgage will eventually eat up the entire equity of a £145K house.

It's such a shame for her.

[Wirdy]

Re: ID theft denied by RBS

It is suspected the money went on gambling; relatives and persons who knew him during his 1st marriage did allude to this at the funeral.

[EXC]

Re: ID theft denied by RBS

I was told by the man who phoned from the RBS Fraud dept that they wouldn't have the original signed credit agreement after all this time. Will this be an advantage? Is the debt enforceable without this?

Correct, ultimately they can't enforce the debts through the court without a credit agreement but there's nothing to prevent them or any debt purchasing companies they flog them to from hassling her for it, but [MENTION=6]Amethyst[/MENTION] will know. Although I'm a bit surprised that they can't find the agreement for the card taken out in 2009.

In theory an SRA should get you everything they hold but in practice that's often not the case. Where SRA's sometimes come in handy is when they dig up something unexpected that could prove useful so for the sake of the £10 fee it's definitely worth doing in my view.

Well done for helping your neighbour with this.

[Debt Camel]

Re: ID theft denied by RBS

As far as the house is concerned, please follow my logic here - the aims we have are to keep the roof over her head (even if the entire equity is eaten up) & reduce the debts for my neighbour as much as possible. Even in the best case scenario of the Land Registry accepting that the house was put in joint names fraudulently, and the mortgage being obtained fraudulently, and they waive ALL the mortgage interest added over the past 11 years, there would still be the lump sum of £33k to pay them back? She hasn't got this, so would need to sell the house to repay it. This defeats the object, despite my absolute disgust that a £33K lump sum lifetime mortgage will eventually eat up the entire equity of a £145K house. .

If the house was put in joint names fraudulently and the mortgage was taken out fraudulently and the lender accepts this / a court decides this (*), then I can't see why she would have to pay 33k back as it has been decided that it was not obtained by her.

I suppose this would be a debt for her husband's estate - but if the house is no longer in joint names then that isnt her problem unless there are other joint assets you haven't mentioned?

* NB I am not saying this is going to be easy to prove, I am just answering your point about what if it is proved, what happens to the 33k debt then

[Wirdy]

Re: ID theft denied by RBS

Thanks. I'll get SAR's sent off for all the debts. From limited research, there appears to be no obligation to provide the original CCA & a reconstituted document now suffices? I think we'd need to prove that the credit cards were not signed by my neighbour, but by her husband, so no original CCA and we will be unable to prove that?

Yes, I can see where you're going with the house argument. There are no other joint assets.

I have no experience of taking something like that through the Scottish civil system, but I suspect it would involve a sizeable solicitors fee. Maybe it would be worth it, if the house share of the deceased is revoked. This could take years though, and we will have creditors wanting their slice of the pie fairly soon.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way a defeatist, and if it were me I'd fight all the way, however I have to remember I'm helping an elderly lady to help get matters into order. I could cope happily with threateneing letters and knocks at the door, but I have to consider what she would have to go through.

There is a complication in the £33k that was equity-released from the house. The current matrimionial home was bought with the proceeds from the sale of the ladies previous house that she had shared with her previous husband, who had died and paid off the mortgage with his life insurance. It transpires that the new husband said he brought '£40k savings' into the marriage (at the time of marriage). We know this was a lie. We know now that one of the reasons for his previous marriage failing was for putting them in serious debt. However, this was 17 yrs ago now & his story was believed, Since the husband handled all the financial affairs & for a 5 yr period there were new cars bought every year, nice holidays, trips away, etc Life was good, so she thought. Little did she know that the nice llifestyle was being funded by the mortgage fraud. So how would she stand on that argument? She had therefore enjoyed at least some of the benefits of the money, albeit unknowingly.

I still feel there are some very grey areas that would take a whole lot of legal argument, Court time, .....fees. Still with no guarantee of a successful outcome?