MBNA cut and paste job

[RedEarth]

Hi

Has anyone challenged in court the cut and paste job that MBNA did to many application forms to add the prescribed terms to a signature document after the fact?

I can see reading through the forum it's a common thing that MBNA has done - where they say they only have a microfiche copy, and then paste a few terms down the left side of the document so that the prescribed terms seem to have been included in the document.

I'm about to challenge that in court saying that MBNA doctored the application form by pasting text on the left and adding a heading...

If there are already any threads about this being discussed in court please can someone let me know...I've done a lot of reading but haven't found anything quite as direct as accusing them of deliberately misleading the court.

[Amethyst]

Re: MBNA cut and paste job

Hi Welcome It might assist to know what you mean if you upload a copy of the document here xx

What year was your agreement taken out?

Sharon
xx

[bluebottle]

Re: MBNA cut and paste job

Hi

Has anyone challenged in court the cut and paste job that MBNA did to many application forms to add the prescribed terms to a signature document after the fact?

I can see reading through the forum it's a common thing that MBNA has done - where they say they only have a microfiche copy, and then paste a few terms down the left side of the document so that the prescribed terms seem to have been included in the document.

I'm about to challenge that in court saying that MBNA doctored the application form by pasting text on the left and adding a heading...

If there are already any threads about this being discussed in court please can someone let me know...I've done a lot of reading but haven't found anything quite as direct as accusing them of deliberately misleading the court.

You need to be very sure of your evidence before alleging a creditor and their legal representatives are misleading or attempting to mislead a court. A creditor that has an FCA authorisation can lose their licence to operate in the UK as well as face prosecution, whilst a legal professional can face being struck-off as well as prosecution.

One way is to put MBNA to strict proof as to the authenticity of the evidence they are relying on. However, I would strongly advise consulting a legal professional before doing so. That is for your own protection.

[MIKE770]

Re: MBNA cut and paste job

mentiioned to a so called judge MBNA suspected tactics in the past and they just riddicule you! on opening a case they ask you if you want the case dealt with to-day, of course you state yes or you want to get to the bottom of certain events/actions, = judges ignore.

[RedEarth]

Re: MBNA cut and paste job

Thanks guys for your replies.

You need to be very sure of your evidence before alleging a creditor and their legal representatives are misleading or attempting to mislead a court. A creditor that has an FCA authorisation can lose their licence to operate in the UK as well as face prosecution, whilst a legal professional can face being struck-off as well as prosecution.

One way is to put MBNA to strict proof as to the authenticity of the evidence they are relying on. However, I would strongly advise consulting a legal professional before doing so. That is for your own protection.

I get your point bluebottle, that they will come after me in fury to save their name. I have some good evidence which I believe will be good enough for a discerning judge...it's a bit quirky so I won't put it up here yet, but if it works it will open the floodgates for many of us who got done over by their cut and paste tactics. They have a witness statement to say this is what their standard procedures are, and I have a witness statement from a professional within a bank which will testify forensically to something else...not directly undercutting them, but going at it from a side attack.

As I am challenging a consent order and aiming to get a CCJ set aside, I need my evidence to be outstanding, I am on the attack not defence here. Judges apparently don't like revisiting a consent order, there has to be an extreme reason for challenging it...otherwise they won't even entertain a hearing...deliberately misleading the court would be one of those reasons, so I have to show all my cards up front to them to get the hearing.

I am posting up a copy of my doctored application form - with my details taken out. Mike770, if your application form is similar to mine, could you post yours up too? And anyone else who has a similar application form if they could post them up or PM me, as everything is in the forensics...I might notice something in yours that can add arguments to my case. In the end we may all win.

Amethyst, the application form was from 2005.

Appreciate your help guys.

[Amethyst]

Re: MBNA cut and paste job

Looks the same as this one ...




actually - even that odd squiggle signature top - that does seem to be on a lot of MBNA agreements mind you, and always slightly different position.

(this is a different one )

[Amethyst]

Re: MBNA cut and paste job

here's another

[Amethyst]

Re: MBNA cut and paste job

and another , do you want more? lol.... why do you consider it to be a false document ?

[Amethyst]

Re: MBNA cut and paste job

As well as the agreement and reverse of, did you receive a copy of the terms and conditions (as the side panel is paragraphs x,y,z and refer to full terms for a to w )

If you have a CCJ against you and are applying for a set aside - where does the consent order come in to it ?
Also what approx value is the CCJ against you ?

[bluebottle]

Re: MBNA cut and paste job

Thanks guys for your replies.



I get your point bluebottle, that they will come after me in fury to save their name. I have some good evidence which I believe will be good enough for a discerning judge...it's a bit quirky so I won't put it up here yet, but if it works it will open the floodgates for many of us who got done over by their cut and paste tactics. They have a witness statement to say this is what their standard procedures are, and I have a witness statement from a professional within a bank which will testify forensically to something else...not directly undercutting them, but going at it from a side attack.

As I am challenging a consent order and aiming to get a CCJ set aside, I need my evidence to be outstanding, I am on the attack not defence here. Judges apparently don't like revisiting a consent order, there has to be an extreme reason for challenging it...otherwise they won't even entertain a hearing...deliberately misleading the court would be one of those reasons, so I have to show all my cards up front to them to get the hearing.

I am posting up a copy of my doctored application form - with my details taken out. Mike770, if your application form is similar to mine, could you post yours up too? And anyone else who has a similar application form if they could post them up or PM me, as everything is in the forensics...I might notice something in yours that can add arguments to my case. In the end we may all win.

Amethyst, the application form was from 2005.

Appreciate your help guys.

If you have independent evidence, that is better. If it is an insider who is blowing the whistle, even better. Understandably, judges do not like being taken for fools, having the wool pulled over their eyes or their position compromised. Any party to proceedings, whether they be claimant, defendant, witness or legal professional who does so can expect a judge to put them on the list for an early crucifixion and, I have to say, I do not blame judges who do. Those who mislead or attempt to mislead courts are bringing the justice system, the courts and the law, itself, into disrepute.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: MBNA cut and paste job

I'm about to challenge that in court saying that MBNA doctored the application form by pasting text on the left and adding a heading...

If there are already any threads about this being discussed in court please can someone let me know...I've done a lot of reading but haven't found anything quite as direct as accusing them of deliberately misleading the court.

I get your point bluebottle, that they will come after me in fury to save their name. I have some good evidence which I believe will be good enough for a discerning judge...it's a bit quirky

This is where you may stumble, no disrespect intended, but not all judges fall into that category, it's a bit of a lottery. Judges are not consumer credit and/or forensic specialists, they have to deal with all sorts of issues and their expertise in this particular area may be limited.

so I won't put it up here yet, but if it works it will open the floodgates for many of us who got done over by their cut and paste tactics. They have a witness statement to say this is what their standard procedures are, and I have a witness statement from a professional within a bank which will testify forensically to something else...not directly undercutting them, but going at it from a side attack.

Given the sensitive nature of the subject, I'd suggest a VIP subscription so this can be discussed more privately.:spy:

As I am challenging a consent order and aiming to get a CCJ set aside, I need my evidence to be outstanding, I am on the attack not defence here. Judges apparently don't like revisiting a consent order, there has to be an extreme reason for challenging it...otherwise they won't even entertain a hearing...deliberately misleading the court would be one of those reasons, so I have to show all my cards up front to them to get the hearing.

Deliberately misleading the court is a criminal offence. :scared:

How did you get the CCJ in the first place? Was it obtained by default, without you being aware of it?

I am posting up a copy of my doctored application form - with my details taken out. Mike770, if your application form is similar to mine, could you post yours up too? And anyone else who has a similar application form if they could post them up or PM me, as everything is in the forensics...I might notice something in yours that can add arguments to my case. In the end we may all win.

Amethyst, the application form was from 2005.

A couple of things spring to mind here:

1. Do you remember applying for the card? 2005 was not that long ago, not in the bigger scheme of things (I applied for my MBNA in the early 90s and still have a vague recollection of doing it over the phone). Would you have your own copy of the agreement in your own files?
2. Failing that, proof that those may not have been the terms from inception could be in the form of interest rates and charges, i.e. if what you have been charged does not match what those terms say. That would require you to have statements to make the point.

[RedEarth]

Re: MBNA cut and paste job

Thank you so much Amethyst for all those application forms...please keep them coming, as many as you can find they are all relevant... it's amazing what you can see when you have multiple copies... You mentioned the signature, and I notice that the signature and date are always the same distance apart, which could suggest they are both on the same stamp. It gets ridiculous when the date appears bang smack over text (as in your example of the smaller landscape agreement, the one that's different to the rest)...there's plenty of room next to or underneath the signature for the date, so it would suggest they are both on the same stamp. Not sure about the relevance of the signature seeming to be a stamp, but that might be considered misleading in and of itself. The signature suggests that a flesh and blood person can attest to having seen the original at the time of the counter signature by the bank - whereas if it is a stamp and not an original signature, then I wonder if that adds to the misleading nature of the document. It may be worth noting during the hearing, especially as this is about a cut and paste issue where the signature seems to straddle the bits that have been pasted on, validating them.

As well as the agreement and reverse of, did you receive a copy of the terms and conditions (as the side panel is paragraphs x,y,z and refer to full terms for a to w )

If you have a CCJ against you and are applying for a set aside - where does the consent order come in to it ?
Also what approx value is the CCJ against you ?

Amethyst, they did send the T&Cs that they say were in existence at the time of signing and that I would have been sent. I am waiting to get that file back from the solicitors who (badly) acted for me (in my opinion) so that I can see what else I can build into my case. But my case is not about enforceability per se. It is about deliberately misleading the court - with their motive being to make the document an enforceable agreement.

As for where the consent order came in - my solicitors went into emergency negotiations with MBNA solicitors before a summary judgement hearing and signed a consent order - which they said was because we did not have the correct envelope that would prove the DN had been sent second class not first class...Dianne Powell's witness statement for MBNA testified that MBNA always send out DNs first class. That was their evidence and we couldn't refute it without the envelope. So my solicitors, having chosen to rely entirely on the DN, decided to go for a consent order. They didn't have the witness testimony evidence I have now for challenging the authenticity of the signed agreement.

I haven't been able to find an appropriate legal representative for this case, but I do have a friend who used to be a corporate lawyer (again by chance in the banking field) who is helping out...it's not her area of expertise but I think she may not need to know that much about the CCA for this strategy on doctored evidence and challenging a consent order. I will get her up to speed about Carey vs HSBC as I think it will be relevant in the way we word things. If anyone can recommend a barrister who is up to this please let me know, I'm not expecting to do a no win no fee arrangement as that is what ended me up with a consent order in the first place!

Thanks for your help guys!

[bluebottle]

Re: MBNA cut and paste job

A question RE....

Did the solicitors who were acting for you sign this consent order with your agreement or signed it without your knowledge and consent and then told you about it afterwards, thereby, possibly, compromising your case? If this is so, you need to speak to the Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA).

[RedEarth]

Re: MBNA cut and paste job

This is where you may stumble, no disrespect intended, but not all judges fall into that category, it's a bit of a lottery. Judges are not consumer credit and/or forensic specialists, they have to deal with all sorts of issues and their expertise in this particular area may be limited.

Actually thanks for this FlamingParrot, I believe this would work in my favour rather than against me...I said my evidence is a bit quirky :tinysmile_twink_t2:. Interestingly I dropped into a law centre a week ago and had to present my argument to a stroppy adviser who had very little patience, she was quite damning and undermining all the way through our discussion... until I did present my argument, and then she completely got it, and ended up reinforcing it over and over. The issue is that I do need space to discuss the argument in its entirety for the penny to drop, I have to create the context for the evidence, the procedures and then the analysis becomes clear. So in a way the fact that I have to prove my case in writing to get the hearing may make it easier for me as they have to read my witness statement and the evidence of my 'insider' and then they get where I am coming from.

Given the sensitive nature of the subject, I'd suggest a VIP subscription so this can be discussed more privately.:spy:

Not sure what the VIP subscription is about, can you tell me?

Deliberately misleading the court is a criminal offence. :scared:

A couple of things spring to mind here:

1. Do you remember applying for the card? 2005 was not that long ago, not in the bigger scheme of things (I applied for my MBNA in the early 90s and still have a vague recollection of doing it over the phone). Would you have your own copy of the agreement in your own files?
2. Failing that, proof that those may not have been the terms from inception could be in the form of interest rates and charges, i.e. if what you have been charged does not match what those terms say. That would require you to have statements to make the point.

Afraid I don't remember the exact conditions present when I applied, no copy of my own agreement (that would have been ace!), apparently they only sent statements dating from 2007 for the summary judgement, I guess because there was 0% interest to start with as it was for a balance transfer.

[RedEarth]

Re: MBNA cut and paste job

A question RE....

Did the solicitors who were acting for you sign this consent order with your agreement or signed it without your knowledge and consent and then told you about it afterwards, thereby, possibly, compromising your case? If this is so, you need to speak to the Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA).

You are right, they did it without my knowledge and consent and told me about it afterwards, I was living abroad at the time and there was nothing I could do about it. That wasn't the only thing they did wrong. But I have to choose my battles...