MBNA - Aktiv Kapital x 2

[CleverClogs]

Re: MBNA - Aktiv Kapital x 2

That was Zurich, a bank that made an appearance around 2001.
.but didn't last long: http://www.standard.co.uk/news/zuric...d-6358397.html

[ODC]

Re: MBNA - Aktiv Kapital x 2

That was Zurich, a bank that made an appearance around 2001. :flypig::flypig::flypig:

...but didn't last long: http://www.standard.co.uk/news/zuric...d-6358397.html

Im sure MBNA sent out threatogrammes with pink pigs on them

[FlamingParrot]

Re: MBNA - Aktiv Kapital x 2

Love the advert Cloggy! I remember when they used to show them ads on TV! :flypig::flypig::flypig:

I never received a threatogram with pink pigs, I sure would remember if I had! :lol: :lol: :lol: I must have defaulted either too early or too late for that :ohwell: - stopped paying in 2010, which is when I got their letters, sadly without pink pigs, that would have made my day!
:flypig::flypig::flypig::flypig::flypig::flypig::f lypig::flypig::flypig::flypig::flypig::flypig:

[CleverClogs]

Re: MBNA - Aktiv Kapital x 2

Im sure MBNA sent out threatogrammes with pink pigs on them

Pink pigs or porky pies? :grin:

[JammyDodger41]

Re: MBNA - Aktiv Kapital x 2

Today I have received documentation from Arrow in relation to one of the MBNA accounts . They have given me 14 days in which to respond and put forward my proposals for payment. They have sent me lots of copies of statements, and a copy of the signed Application Form dated 1998. The only other documents they have forwarded are the payment information details which were always on the back of the statements. Shall I post up a copy of the Application form for you to take a look at ?

[CleverClogs]

Re: MBNA - Aktiv Kapital x 2

Please do, after blanking out your personal details.

[labman]

Re: MBNA - Aktiv Kapital x 2

Application Form and the Terms and Conditions they've sent please.

[JammyDodger41]

Re: MBNA - Aktiv Kapital x 2

I have just found some Financial Information on the back of the Application form so I have scanned that for you also. Many Thanks

[JammyDodger41]

Re: MBNA - Aktiv Kapital x 2

The above pdf is everything they have sent to me barr copies of statements. My original CCA request was sent to them on the 15th April .

[CleverClogs]

Re: MBNA - Aktiv Kapital x 2

It is - of course - incomplete.

The "Financial and Related Conditions" refers to the MBNA Credit Card Terms and Conditions - which are completely absent.

[labman]

Re: MBNA - Aktiv Kapital x 2

So until those are supplied, they have failed to comply with your CCA request and this debt is unenforceable at law.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: MBNA - Aktiv Kapital x 2

It is - of course - incomplete.

The "Financial and Related Conditions" refers to the MBNA Credit Card Terms and Conditions - which are completely absent.

So until those are supplied, they have failed to comply with your CCA request and this debt is unenforceable at law.

In view of the above, you could send this back to them:

Dear Sirs

Account No/Reference No: [ENTER NUMBER]

On [DATE] I wrote requesting a true copy of the executed credit agreement for this account. In response to this request I was supplied a document (copy attached) that did not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (CCA1974), because it does not contain all the necessary prescribed terms. The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contains the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in s.61(1) of the CCA(1974) and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document. In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

The documents I received appear to be missing the prescribed terms required by section 60(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. The recent McGuffick and Carey cases confirmed that a lender should submit upon request a valid true copy of the original CCA and also went on to suggest that both the creditor and debtors name and address are clearly displayed - the Judge dealt with this point at paragraph 60 of his judgement when he said this:

"As a matter of common sense It is difficult to see how a copy of a document can omit the names of the parties. It might he thought that the address of the debtor, however, was immaterial, at least to the debtor, who can be assumed to know what it was at the time, if different from his present address. However, as noted above any application of the concept of materiality must not override the requirements of section 78 and the Copies Regulations properly understood. In my view it is clear that the name and address must be provided"

Whilst I appreciate and understand the provision of the recent Carey v HSBC case that stipulates a reconstituted agreement can be provided, I'd like to also point out that I am disputing the actual existence of such an original, which means the Carey case is irrelevant as without one the account would still be deemed unenforceable. Carey only went to prove that if you could not provide an original, for whatever reason, but had proof on your systems/records that certain conditions were in place at that time then a recon could be submitted only in-so-far as to satisfy your s.78 request. If you do not have an original then a recon cannot be produced.

The OFT Guidance clearly states that lenders would be acting unfairly, and potentially in breach of their consumer credit licenses, if they misled borrowers by:

• hiding or disguising the fact that there was never a proper signed agreement in the first place
• providing only a copy of the current terms and conditions, not the original ones

Similarly, in line with recent OFT Guidance surrounding Unenforceability, the OFT has stipulated the following;

Sections 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 outline the information creditors must provide to debtors under fixed-term, running account & Hire Agreements. Under these sections a debtor can pay £1 to get:

• a copy of their agreement
• copies of some of the other documents mentioned in their agreement
• a statement of account

If this information is not provided within 12 working days the debt becomes unenforceable. This means a creditor cannot:

• make the debtor pay the debt before they're supposed to
• get a court judgment against the debtor

As this account is clearly unenforceable, I expect you to write back and confirm that no further action will be taken and that the account is now closed and no further correspondence will take place.

Yours faithfully,

[JammyDodger41]

Re: MBNA - Aktiv Kapital x 2

Great thankyou all for your replies. I will need to read through the letter Flaming Parrot suggests carefully so that I actually understand exactly what it is I am telling them ! So just to clarify, as they only sent me the Application form with the info on the back, statements and the payment details that are usually included within the statements this isnt sufficient ? I am sure I will have more questions once I have had time to read the letter above rather than skimming through it. I may be back later.

You have all been really helpful as usual. Thankyou.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: MBNA - Aktiv Kapital x 2

Great thankyou all for your replies. I will need to read through the letter Flaming Parrot suggests carefully so that I actually understand exactly what it is I am telling them ! So just to clarify, as they only sent me the Application form with the info on the back, statements and the payment details that are usually included within the statements this isnt sufficient ? I am sure I will have more questions once I have had time to read the letter above rather than skimming through it. I may be back later.

In a nutshell, for an account to be enforceable, there needs to be a properly executed agreement. A properly executed agreement needs to contain all the prescribed terms. In this case, as noted above by CC and Labman, some of the terms are missing, which is what the letter above says. It also quotes bits of case law as well and regulations to back up your statements.

All the above refers to the actual agreement you would have signed, it's got nothing to do with anything included within statements. Statements are generated later and terms and conditions can be varied over the life of the card, what matters is what was (or wasn't) on the original agreement.

The recipient very likely won't have a clue what you're talking about, DCAs are not known for employing the sharpest tools in the box, they are just trained monkeys, programmed to try and make you pay.

When hit with a letter like the above, they often give up the ghost and move on to easier prey.

Hope that makes things a bit clearer. :thumb:

[CleverClogs]

Re: MBNA - Aktiv Kapital x 2

Essentially, the problem for the creditor would be this: they do not appear to be able to prove that the agreement was properly executed, as defined by section 61 (link) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. The extract from the full set of Terms and Conditions printed on the reverse of the application form alludes in several places to that full set of Terms and Conditions, yet there is no other trace of that document.

It may be that you were given a copy of those Terms and Conditions before you completed the application form and were so pleased by them that you were quite eager to be bound by them. It may be that you had been presented with a deluxe copy, artistically illuminated and hand engrossed on the finest vellum by an underpaid and bent-backed scribe, or that the Terms and Conditions had been chased into gleaming sheets of burnished copper, only to vanish after you had read them as the scribblings of Mormon the Moron had done when Joseph Smith had been given the secret of how to start a new religion.

Irrespective of what may have happened, however, it would appear that the Mafia Bank of North America have not a scrap of proof of what did happen or that you saw and agreed to all the conditions before signing.