Paypal and section 75

[dantheaxeman]

Hi All, I'll try and make this as easy to read as possible.

Firstly, in March/April this year we bought some kitchen worktops from an online retailer (Paypal from credit card)
The worktops weren't up to standard and a visible join (joined by my fitter) could be seen whereas they were advertised as seamless (I believe this to be because the adhesive is not colour matched to the worktops), so I cancelled within the cancellation period under the distance selling regulations.
The retailer have refused a refund (all sorts of excuses, like.. I have cut the worktops, the worktops are bespoke; none that really hold any water)
In trying to give the retailer time to put it right I missed the Paypal 45 day window. Paypal now say that my only recourse is the Visa chargeback scheme or the banks liability under section 75 of the cca
I have approached the bank (First Direct) who say they have no direct connection with the retailer, so are not liable under section 75
I have informed the bank...

'I believe that even the indirect relationship you claim with the retailer would be sufficient to hold you jointly and severally liable in this case. I would also contest your opinion that the relationship is indirect as the retailer is capable of accepting payment directly from the same card.
You have already stated that if I had paid with my Visa credit card that you would be able to process my claim. If it is true that you really don’t have any liability under section 75 on the part of the retailer, then Paypal claiming to be the “safer, more convenient” way to buy would clearly be misrepresentation, for which you would also be jointly and severally liable.'

I doubt the bank will budge on their decision, so I have informed them that I am disputing the debt and withholding payment for the amount.

Since then they took payment via Direct Debit and I have had to have them reverse it via the direct debit guarantee today.

At the moment I'm in a situation where I could take the retailer to small claims court (I don'treally have time or want to do this)
Paypal say the bank have a duty to me; I could take paypal to court but they are not uk based and it would be complicated and I'm not sure they are wrong

The bank seem to be a common denominator and must have some obligation to me one way or another.

I'd appreciate some feedback from you guys.

Thanks, Dan.

[Guest]

Re: Paypal and section 75

If I understand this correctly, you paid Paypal by credit card who then used the funds to pay the supplier.

Section 75 gives joint liability in cases of breach between the creditor and the supplier, providing there has been pre existing arrangements made between them(section 75-12bCCA).

If the scenario above is correct the joint liability will be between yourself and Paypal, in my opinion, unfortunately they have not committed any breach or misrepresentation, they simply acted on your instruction to pay the seller, the bank would be correct in this instance in saying that they had no liability.

That is if i have interpreted your situation correctly.

D

[Guest]

Re: Paypal and section 75

I think your best bet would be to have a word with your local CAB and make complaint under the sale of goods act.

D

[wales01man]

Re: Paypal and section 75

Have i read the thread correctly,did were the worktops cut by a fitter not the seller ?

[dantheaxeman]

Re: Paypal and section 75

Hi Davy, thanks for your response. Paypal advertise themself to be the "safer" way to pay. Now in this situation the bank tell me that paypal wasn't the safer way to pay. They have clearly misrepresented themselves and also have a direct relationship with the bank making the bank jointly and severably liable for this misrepresentation.

[dantheaxeman]

Re: Paypal and section 75

Have i read the thread correctly,did were the worktops cut by a fitter not the seller ?

yes they were cut by my fitters. following the instructions of the manufacturer and cleaning all edges using manufacturer supplied cleaning supplies.

[dantheaxeman]

Re: Paypal and section 75

I think your best bet would be to have a word with your local CAB and make complaint under the sale of goods act.

D

As I cancelled under the DSR They are obliged to refund me in full ASAP

[Guest]

Re: Paypal and section 75

I would have to look it up but i think that the DSR's cancellation rights have exemptions for goods and services already supplied.

D

[dantheaxeman]

Re: Paypal and section 75

The DSR 7 day cancellation window only starts the day after the goods are supplied. I cancelled on the last day of the cancellation window and informed the retailer they had 21 days to pick the worktops up (They didn't).

[Guest]

Re: Paypal and section 75

HI
Yes this is the clause the shop wi8ll be relying on
Exceptions to the right to cancel
13.—(1) Unless the parties have agreed otherwise, the consumer will not have the right to
cancel the contract by giving notice of cancellation pursuant to regulation 10 in respect of
contracts—
(a) for the supply of services if the supplier has complied with regulation 8(3) and
performance of the contract has begun with the consumer’s agreement before the end of
the cancellation period applicable under regulation 12;
(b) for the supply of goods or services the price of which is dependent on fluctuations in the
financial market which cannot be controlled by the supplier;
(c) for the supply of goods made to the consumer’s specifications or clearly personalised or
which by reason of their nature cannot be returned or are liable to deteriorate or expire
rapidly;
D

[wales01man]

Re: Paypal and section 75

when i had a kitchen businees in the 80s i had aset of worktops that delaminated after a few days i contacted the supplier who passed it on to the manufacturer who accepted liability replaced tops and paid for removal and refitting cant remember if i dealt direct with manufacturer or not bot worth a try now?

[Guest]

Re: Paypal and section 75

Certainly, its the quality of his product that is in question.

D

[dantheaxeman]

Re: Paypal and section 75

Hi Guys, thanks for that. I don't expect 13c applies because they were not personalised, or made to measure. If I hadn't used the items then 13c would definately not apply and I think 'subject to deteriation' is a stretch. It would be like not being able to send an airfix kit back even though various pieces were missing.

also, I just found this...
https://cms.paypal.com/uk/cgi-bin/ma...Agreement_full

Which should hopefully give me that direct relationship (although I've only skimmed it)

[dantheaxeman]

Re: Paypal and section 75

Thanks Walesman, unfortunately the supplier are even worse. Giving the retailers their due, they are trying to do their best to help (obviously without impacting their own pocket)

[dantheaxeman]

Re: Paypal and section 75

some more questions..

Should the bank be trying to do some investigation on their own part, as yet they haven't spoken either to paypal or the retailer?
If this comes to court, who has to prove liability?
Am I entitled to withhold payment of the credit card debt?

Thanks, Dan.