MBNA CCA and RBS CCA

[kyrights]

Re: MBNA CCA and RBS CCA

Redspike,

This is good, but remember that you should henceforth write them bearing in mind that the letter may be part of a court hearing. Don't tell them that you are a layman when it comes to CCA, you are using the law and that is it, you could use the layman argument when you make a mistake in law...Not a big point though.

Have you considered calculating the PPI that you have paid them and then requesting for the payment with possible interest? since they cannot now enforce the debt, but must respond to any claim you make against them rgearding the PPI, we'll see how they will respond...They must either present the agreement (Which I think they would not do because they have commited themselves to saying they cannot find it) or pay up/negotiate any claim you make.

If you decide to go this route, just add the claim to your letter and if they do not respond positively, send pre action protocol letter to them, and you can then start a valid claim by downloading the claim form from HMCS website.

It is interested the reason you gave why the account should not continue to be maintained...good one.

Let me know how you decide to proceed.

[Redspike]

Re: MBNA CCA and RBS CCA

Hi and thanks for your reply.

I haven't got all the statements and I haven't got a clue how much I have paid or what the deal was. This is what I state in the letter. Is there a formula?

best regards.

[WendyB]

Re: MBNA CCA and RBS CCA

Have either of you read up on the Carey case and reconstructed agreements?

[Redspike]

Re: MBNA CCA and RBS CCA

Hi Wendy B,

Yes I have the full transcript. I was trying to intimate that even with some paperwork in place, the ppi can make a big difference to the balance . I have been with RBS for over 15 years and I can't remember when I got the card nor the details of the PPI or how much I have paid. The Balance is about 10.5k.

Thanks for your comments - your reply and opinion would be appreciated

[WendyB]

Re: MBNA CCA and RBS CCA

What is the balance on the credit card? Would refund of charges (late payment, overlimit etc) and PPI, plus interest, greatly reduce/wipe out the balance? I found Natwest were pretty easy to reclaim charges from.

Have you sent SAR? That would get you copies of statemnts, which would detail charges, PPI etc. Would also show the prevailing interest rates at the time.

[Redspike]

Re: MBNA CCA and RBS CCA

How far back would the SAR take me. They have replied to my CCA request and admitted they have no paperwork copy of letter in the thread above

[WendyB]

Re: MBNA CCA and RBS CCA

Well SAR should get you ALL the info they have on you, but you might find they only send 6 years worth. It would at least be a start and you could possibly then use to extrapolate further, although tbh I don't know as you'd get far with a reclaim over 6 years, but it would definitely be worth a try and a start for negotations, if the amounts involved were worthwhile. Depends if the reclaim would bring your debt down to a reasonable, manageable amount. Either way it would reduce the balance outstanding.

[Redspike]

Re: MBNA CCA and RBS CCA

Is it best just to request the SAR and forget about the letter or do you feel there is a chance of them dealing anyway, due to the circumstances. If the account was not involved with PPI then maybe the reconstituted agreement could be brought into play by them, but surely they also have to prove my acceptance and suitability at the time for charging me for the PPI. I have no reference to this whatsoever.

thanks

[Redspike]

Hi Everybody,

I have tweaked the letter for your opinions again. The ploy is to draw them out into the open written by me as an ignorant consumer, trying to intimate reasoning, decency and common sense from both parties???. If the reponse is poor to this I am planning on following the SAR route, although if they respond correctly they should provide the paperwork relevant to the SAR request. Any comments gratefully recieved.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Without Prejudice


Dear Miss xxxxxxxx,


Re Account Number xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Thank you for your organization's truthful reply, of which I have noted the content.

My reminder, sent to you on the 23rd April 2010 crossed in the post with your reply, however the content of my letter still stands apart from the reminder element. Your organization has now replied to my Credit Card Agreement request, dated 18th March 2010, albeit your reply took over a month to reach me. Your reply was delivered already opened and my address details were handwritten on the envelope it came in, which I found suspicious coming from a large organization like yours. This was received on the 26th April 2010, the date on your correspondence was 16th April. In effect it took 10 days from writing it to my receiving it. If you print all your envelopes then the document had been repackaged by other parties for some reason, which is concerning?

We have been loyal customers of RBS for many years and we have never had a known reason to doubt you until recently. My initial reason for requesting my Credit Card Agreement was to back check the interest rate, Personal Protection insurance ( which I cancelled in writing on the 6th October 2007), and other charges to the account. I cancelled the PPI because a friend told me that I was not covered because I was classed as being self employed. I have no reference to the PPI agreement at home, if indeed I ever received the Terms and Conditions of that Policy. I wasn't aware at the time of cancelling of my consumer rights. It is unfortunate that you have misfiled the CCA agreement and paperwork.

The pressure that you applied over recent months made me learn and look into the matter further based on internet research. I have been guilty, like many, of being naïve and ignorant to my financial affairs, but now I am in the process of correcting that. But as a consumer I would also state that , like taking advice from a Doctor regarding your health, you as an professional organisation should commit to the same level of integrity and honesty within your own Sector giving accurate advice to the consumer. I am a Contracts Manager and Energy Consultant within the Building Industry, so I am reasonably familiar with Contract Law with regard to the that Industry. I have, over the years, been asked many times to justify and substantiate claims. This I must do in order to get paid.

As a direct result of the PPI charges any alleged balance will be rising, in a compound manner, based on the interest charged, for all the premiums paid on the account over it's lifetime.

Because of the content of your recent reply I do not and cannot acknowledge any debt to your company.

Furthermore, you can provide no reference to an agreement, interest rate and other prescribed terms and conditions of the Credit Card at the time of application (if there is one?), as per Consumer Credit Act 1974 and any subsequent amendments, the method and reason the Personal Protection Insurance was added, the amount of your charges, and the details of the rolling commission charges that you received as a result of PPI. This makes it is impossible for me to calculate or consider any misrepresentations or errors made by you, applied to the account over its lifetime.

I accept that you have stated in your correspondence to me that the account should be maintained but substantial differences could/will occur to any account balance. For that reason, and because I have no chance of being able to scrutinise or calculate anything because of lack of information from you, I will not be paying any further monies until this matter can be brought to a satisfactory conclusion, and at no cost to me. Any further interest or charges can only recommence on any agreed balance if the dispute is mutually satisfied or a Court of Law demands it.

I will reiterate my terms from my reminder, dated 23rd April 2010, bearing in mind that this is now formally and legally a disputed account:


“Whilst your default continues, you are not entitled to enforce any part of this alleged agreement.




This includes, but is not limited to, the following:


* You may not demand any payment on this alleged account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
* You may not add any further interest or charges to this account.
* You may not pass this alleged account to any third party.
* You may not register any information in respect of this alleged account with any of the credit reference agencies.
* You may not issue a default notice related to this account.


Please also note that to register information with the credit reference agencies, or to issue a default notice, would also be in breach of Section 13.6 of The Banking Code, which stipulates that you can only register such information if the amount owed is not in dispute.


It would be a breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 for you to continue to take any action against this account whilst this default remains.”


I will refer you to recent Court Cases, where alleged Creditor debts were zeroed in full and full refunds of PPI contributions over the term. Obviously these depend on individual circumstances, but the final variance on an account can be substantial, some ending with a negative balance for the creditor.

Because I personally have no reference to agreements or Contracts to any of our alleged dealings I can neither comment nor formulate an opinion on any relationship that we may have, nor can I prove or disprove any figures or calculations that you claim are owed on the account.

I trust that your initial honesty and integrity will be maintained in the future. What are the chances of the Credit Card Agreement being found and do you have any reference to the PPI policy relating to the charges on the account.? We both understand the rules and regulations regarding Statute Barring, but it doesn't seem to make sense to me prolonging the matter if there is no chance of recovery of the agreement/s.

I will look forward to receiving your reply with a fair and just resolution regarding this dispute within the next 7 days, in writing only please. Telephone calls will not be accepted at this stage.
I will gratefully receive any paperwork that you may hold regarding this account to enable me to draw conclusions.

I must also state that this correspondence will be used as evidence in a Court of Law if this matter gets to that stage. If I believe that your reply is unacceptable I will seriously, but reluctantly, consider engaging professional assistance to defend my position.

All my correspondence with you has/will be sent by Special Recorded Delivery so that I know that my correspondence is being received by you,






Yours sincerely

[Redspike]

Re: MBNA CCA and RBS CCA

One question - I don't understand where the reconstituted agreements come in to play. If RBS admit that they cannot enforce the debt, why do they not just reconstitute the agreement? Still need opinion on draft letter above,

many thanks

[WendyB]

Re: MBNA CCA and RBS CCA

I'm not an expert on CCA. However it seems to me that by you making out to them that you aren't an expert either, then you are just opening the door for them to tie you in knots. I would suggest that your letter sticks to the facts and legalities. Your comparison to doctors will, frankly, cut absolutely no ice with them at all, and your opinion as towhat you hope they would do will cut even less, they don't care what you hope they will do, they will just stick to the legalities (or what they perceive to be the legalities). I persoanlly feel you need tocut out parts of the letter, make it more succinct, so to speak. You can make it wuite clear that you know what you are talking about without giving them chapter and verse about what you do for a living etc. Your hope that they will send you the SAR details will probably prove in vain. The only way to be sure to get full SAR is to request one and pay the £10 fee.

You need to decide exactly what you want to achieve by this, and why.
Do you want to erase/avoid the debt completely? If so, why?
If the debt were reduced, ie by the amount of PPI and related interest and/or late payment charges etc, would you be willing and able to pay it?

You state in your letter to them that you would be unable to check balances, PPI paid etc, SAR would give you the means to do this (or as far as possible depending on how many years records they produced). The rest could then be estimated.

Another point to remember is that unenforceable CCA can only be used as a defence, it cannot be used as a claim. And just becuase they acknowledge that the debt is unenforceable at present, doesn't mean it won't get passed to some lowlife DCA in the future who will file at court just because they can.

I don't really think that you an actually say to them that you don't acknowledge any debt to their company, becuase you have already acknowledged it, it's more a technicality of yes, you know you owe it but it's unenforceable. A minor point maybe but the two points are a world apart, I think.

Please bear in mind that the above is my personal opinion, others may see things differently.

[Redspike]

Re: MBNA CCA and RBS CCA

Many thanks for the reply - so difficult when you don't know the rules. I also have a loan and an o/d with RBS which are both up to date and authorised. My intention is for a fair outcome only.We have fell behind a couple of months with the CC's because I believed them to be the lesser of all the evils. Mortgage first!

You think it best that I send them a SAR request only?
Do they need an explanation for the reason of my request?
I presume the account remains in default with my reminder letter?
Is there a standard template for the SAR request?

best regards

[WendyB]

Re: MBNA CCA and RBS CCA

Try this Legal Beagles Consumer Forum No, they don't need a reason.

[Redspike]

Re: MBNA CCA and RBS CCA

Mnay thanks.

Furher questions I'm afraid.

1.If I have put the account in dispute do I need to inform the Credit Card section of RBS (who wrote back to me about not having a CCA), that I have taken this route and requested my SAR from their Head Office?
2. Has all interest and charges stopped for the time being or am I still incurring debt whilst I wait for the return of the SAR and beyond whilst I try and work everything out? I am reluctant to pay the full amount if there is a chance of a reasonable refund on the account.
3, There is a reasonable chance that they will not find the CCA - it must take alot for them to admit this and I presume they have searched high and low. The debt is Statute Barred after 6 years anyway - as far as I have been told. But how can they pass it on to debt collectors when they cannot comply themselves - what difference does it make?

[WendyB]

Re: MBNA CCA and RBS CCA

You don't have to tell them you have requested SAR. I have no idea whether interest has stopped, have they told you it has? If not, then assume it hasn't. Just because they shouldn't pass it to a DCA, doesn't mean they won't. Yes it will be statute barred after 6 years, but only from when you last acknowledge it.