Cap One not refunding charges to me but to DCA and debt is settled, so what to do?

[tifo]

in April 2007, i settled a Cap One account with a DCA with full payment of the outstanding balance, so not only did i clear everything i also paid charges, PPI and associated interest on the account.

i then reclaimed charges from Cap One in May 2007 and they offered the difference between £18 and £12 and sent the payment to the DCA, though i never accepted their settlement offer. As soon as the DCA got this refund, they seemed to resurrect the whole balance and it shows as outstanding.

in September 2007, i then took Cap One to the FOS who upheld that Cap One can pay the DCA, even if i've paid the account in full, because THEY (Cap One) weren't paid by me! The decision was made in October 2008.

i then referred it to the FOS Service Review Team and then the Independant Assessor who all upheld the decision (as it cannot be changed anyway).

after the FOS and test case (because courts were putting credit card claims on hold as well) i'm chasing Cap One again and they're still saying the same, i.e. they will refund towards the 'outstanding balance' though there is NO balance. This time they quote the FOS as upholding their offer. Plus the DCA now shows a outstanding balance.

I've enquired with the DCA and they have no record of the settlement letter (the settlement was done through their Legal Department's Director) and they say the balance is only for internal purposes as they are not chasing it. But this is still stopping Cap One from paying me direct and it's not fair since i paid cash in full.

Cap One say they will refund charges to the 'outstanding balance' (i am claiming £720 with stat interest) and have also offered to refund £45 PPI (no interest) by cheque to me. But why one and not the other to me?

I paid £752 (which included £382 of charges and £45 of PPI plus associated interest on both) to the DCA.

I am reclaiming £720 (£382 charges + stat interest) + £68 (£45 PPI + stat interest) from Cap One.

So if Cap One refund the charges and interest towards the 'outstanding balance' i am paying twice towards the account and this is very unfair.

Any advice what i can do?

[TUTTSI]

Re: Cap One not refunding charges to me but to DCA and debt is settled, so what to do

Hi Tifo

I don;t know if you have had a read Budgies claim against Capital one http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...ead.php?t=6123 - it makes an excellent read.

Most people have been receiving all their charges back and with interest in some cases without the need to go to court, in particular Tools just wrote a letter without listing the charges to Barclaycard and received back within 9 days a refund which covered all charges and interest I believe.

Have you sent them a SAR to find out what they have been doing with your account?

Tuttsi

[tifo]

Re: Cap One not refunding charges to me but to DCA and debt is settled, so what to do

Hi Tuttsi,

Thanks for the reply.

I haven't sent a SAR to Capital One because i know how much charges/PPI i am claiming and i know that they sold it to their favourite DCA some years ago, with whom i then settled in full from a claim i had with them.

So far, Cap One have been insistant on paying the DCA though they have offered all charges (but no interest even at the FOS). I've explained this in my first post.

However, they have also said any charges are over 6 years and hence not refundable, though i have made it clear it's because of the FOS/test case that they've gone over 6 years, plus i've quoted s.32 of the Limitation Act because they misled me as to the lawfulness of the charges.

I think court is the only option though the only thing stopping me is that Cap One may offer to refund to the DCA again and the judge may agree. Not that i can see how since the DCA was never a part of the agreement when charges were made and at the FOS or court.

[TUTTSI]

Re: Cap One not refunding charges to me but to DCA and debt is settled, so what to do

Hi Tifo

The only reason I ask if you have sent an SAR is to see if they can prove they sold the debt to the DCA as I don't suppose they have sent you a true signed assignment of the debt?

Also, what proof do you have that they paid the DCA directly?

I think you are entitled to ask these questions.

I actually have an eighteen year + old bank claim on going in court with the Halifax. If you search for that in the Halifx section you will see any arguments which have gone down on the POC etc which may help you.

If you have a good read of Budgie thread as he also got compounded interest as well and it got settled out of court.

Tuttsi

Hi Tuttsi,

Thanks for the reply.

I haven't sent a SAR to Capital One because i know how much charges/PPI i am claiming and i know that they sold it to their favourite DCA some years ago, with whom i then settled in full from a claim i had with them.

So far, Cap One have been insistant on paying the DCA though they have offered all charges (but no interest even at the FOS). I've explained this in my first post.

However, they have also said any charges are over 6 years and hence not refundable, though i have made it clear it's because of the FOS/test case that they've gone over 6 years, plus i've quoted s.32 of the Limitation Act because they misled me as to the lawfulness of the charges.

I think court is the only option though the only thing stopping me is that Cap One may offer to refund to the DCA again and the judge may agree. Not that i can see how since the DCA was never a part of the agreement when charges were made and at the FOS or court.

[tifo]

Re: Cap One not refunding charges to me but to DCA and debt is settled, so what to do

Hi Tuttsi,

I know the debt was assigned to the DCA because i received a NoA and the DCA took over reporting at the CRAs. This is why i don't owe Cap One anything and they continue to offer to pay the DCA.

They made the part offer of £134 and said they've sent the refund to the DCA. The DCA has confirmed that this payment was put towards the balance, which they re-opened after i had settled it. I did not accept the Cap One offer and continue to chase the whole amount.

[LuggerBugs]

Re: Cap One not refunding charges to me but to DCA and debt is settled, so what to do

Tifo, we've been here many times before, haven't we? You are NOT "paying twice". You are merely not getting your hands on an amount that Cap 1 will be sending to the DCA that will REDUCE the amount outstanding to the DCA.

OK, you may not agree with the amount that Cap 1 will be paying to the DCA, but THAT should be where you concentrate your efforts. NOT on whether or not they pay you directly.

Really, you've had this advice in various shape or form over many years, and still refuse to see sense. If ever there was someone who deserves the term "serial debtor", it's you. You go through life running up debts that you do your level best to get out of, and expect everybody to help you in your futile task.

I wouldn't mind, if you were genuinely in strife through no fault of your own. But as many members on many forums can testify, your problems are all of your own making.

Now get a grip, and change your attitude: The world does NOT owe you a living.

Now, go back to the FOS, and prove to them that Cap 1 should be paying you all your charges and interest back. And just accept that it's the DCA who will be seeing that money, NOT you.

Even though I suspect that you are simply miffed that the DCA is getting anything at all, since you have no intention of paying them a penny youself.

I'm sorry if it seems unfair to you, but whether or not you agree that the DCA has a right to your debt, the reality is, the law allows for the OC to assign your debt regardless of whose feelings get hurt.

[tifo]

Re: Cap One not refunding charges to me but to DCA and debt is settled, so what to do

Tifo, we've been here many times before, haven't we? You are NOT "paying twice". You are merely not getting your hands on an amount that Cap 1 will be sending to the DCA that will REDUCE the amount outstanding to the DCA.

Even though I suspect that you are simply miffed that the DCA is getting anything at all, since you have no intention of paying them a penny youself.

Hi person who has told me this before.

If you look at my first post here, i SETTLED THE DEBT AT THE DCA before claiming from Cap One. So in answer to your statements as above, (1) there is NO debt to reduce at the DCA because it has been PAID, so i AM paying twice and (2) since i have PAID THE DCA in full this statement is not true.

Yes, it's true i paid the DCA from compensation that they paid me for something they did (they defaulted me 5 times through multiple company names so obviously only one of these could have been the creditor) but this was still a payment to them otherwise i would have got the money instead of agreeing to let them pay it towards settling the debt in full, including the £382 of charges and £45 of PPI.

So the DCA has already received £134 and the bank keeps wanting to send them the rest of the refund.

I know it may seem unfair on the DCA for a debtor to ask them to honour settlements but they shouldn't be reneging on their promises.

Why should i let the bank pay the DCA if i have already settled the account in full? Isn't it unfair on the debtor to have to pay DCAs and banks money for the same account? This is what the FOS have said and what you seem to agree with.

For example:

Debt at bank = £0.
Debt at DCA = £750.
DCA offer me £750 compensation.
I pay DCA £750 to fully settle debt.
Balance owing to DCA = £0 (they confirm).
Bank offer me £700.
Bank pay DCA £700.

Money received by DCA = £750 (from me) + £700 (from bank) = £1,450.

If DCA now state a balance of £750 then they still owe me the £750 they offered in compensation.

But DCA confirm current balance of £650 (£750 - £134 in their calculations) is for internal purposes only and i do not owe them anything. But this balance is still stopping the bank from paying me direct though it's not really an outstanding balance to the DCA.

Can you see why i am argueing this one?

[Amethyst]

Re: Cap One not refunding charges to me but to DCA and debt is settled, so what to do

Have you sent CAP ONE a copy of the confirmation the debt is paid off with the DCA and asked them to refund it directly to you ?

This bit
Balance owing to DCA = £0 (they confirm).

and this bit


But DCA confirm current balance of £650 (£750 - £134 in their calculations) is for internal purposes only and i do not owe them anything. But this balance is still stopping the bank from paying me direct though it's not really an outstanding balance to the DCA.


If those are in writing you shouldnt have any problems ?

[LuggerBugs]

Re: Cap One not refunding charges to me but to DCA and debt is settled, so what to do

"For internal purposes only" Pfft. Have you got anything in writing to say that they won't be chasing you for anything else?

[tifo]

Re: Cap One not refunding charges to me but to DCA and debt is settled, so what to do

"For internal purposes only" Pfft. Have you got anything in writing to say that they won't be chasing you for anything else?

Yes, as part of the settlement they paid off the account and removed all defaults. This was offered in writing from the Legal Director and confirmed in writing later. I've sent the letters to Cap One (again) and previously the FOS who said since the bank were not paid, they can keep the refund (no comment on the fact that i'd paid the DCA in full). I think this is detailed quiet a bit in the CCS forum as you know.
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If those are in writing you shouldnt have any problems ?

I've asked them to put it in writing that the balance is only for internal purposes since they confirm on the telephone (and in writing) that i don't owe them anything but when the bank asks they state the 'internal balance', thus stopping me getting the refund.

I've asked this of the Collections Manager who sent me the letter in April 2007 and from the Legal Director who sent me the settlement offer, following the ICO decision that they had unlawfully defaulted me since they were not the creditor at any time (the purchaser defaulted me 3 times and the administrator also defaulted me 2 times). You know how DCAs work, one company buys the debt and the other administers it, bit like Cabot Financial and Kings Hill (whatever the number or country). Luggerbugs knows this well.

[LuggerBugs]

Re: Cap One not refunding charges to me but to DCA and debt is settled, so what to do

So sue them. If the FOS has been impotent, simply take Cap 1 to court. Get an LBA in the post today.

And if not, why not?

[tifo]

Re: Cap One not refunding charges to me but to DCA and debt is settled, so what to do

So sue them. If the FOS has been impotent, simply take Cap 1 to court. Get an LBA in the post today.

Yes, i've already sent them a letter through a solicitor two weeks ago.

Some good news though, they offered to refund PPI by cheque to me but not the charges. They're offering no interest on the PPI, so only £45. At least it's a move in the right direction.

Letter is dated 3 March so it came before they got the letter from the solicitor.

So if they're happy to send a cheque for the PPI, why not the charges?

[LuggerBugs]

Re: Cap One not refunding charges to me but to DCA and debt is settled, so what to do

PPI is a different matter entirely. The PPI refund needs to put you in the same position as you would have been had you not taken the insurance in the first place. Historically then, there was no debt in essence, that included any element of insurances. That's for Cap 1 and the DCA to sort out amongst themselves.

Charges are different, and built up as a result of your purported breach on your contract with Cap 1. Unless you can get them to either admit they had no right to those charges (never happen), or get them into court to prove that the charges were unlawful, any "goodwill" gesture by Cap 1 simply goes towards reducing the outstanding debt.

Now since the DCA is now the proud owner of that debt, Cap 1 is obligated to ensure that the DCA is not prejudiced by the fact that the debt they bought is having its balance reduced by a simple goodwill gesture. And therefore Cap 1 are legally bound to make that refund to the DCA.

It matters not a jot as to whether or not you have already paid off the debt to the DCA, including any possible agreement that you may have come to in Full and Final settlement. That is between you and the DCA. It could be argued (and probably will in court) that under the circumstances, your beef is with the DCA if they are getting their cake and eating it too.

Personally, I would be concentrating too on getting interest added to your PPI refund. And since it looks like you are heading to court, you might as well chance your arm at stautory interest in restitution.