Barclaycard reply to CCA request letters

**redsnapper** · 22nd November 2009, 21:22:PM

Re: Barclaycard reply to CCA request letters

These are standard BC template letters, although the second one refers to CPR. BUt you stated that you sent CCA requests in both cases; is this correct? If so, the second letter does not apply or make sense.

My understanding is that BC will say this is all they have to supply. You need to complain, then wait until they say in effect - "That's it - we are not going to send you anything else" You can then apply to the FOS asking them to intervene and force BC to comply. Apparently they have been known to get BC to produce agreements in the end.

Others with more experience should be along in due course.

**fuzzybrain** · 22nd November 2009, 23:34:PM

Re: Barclaycard reply to CCA request letters

FOS get them to send agreements, but usually they are blank or do not have the prescribed terms in them. FOS then wash their hands of the matter and say that only the courts can decide on this matter.

From my experience of BC they will pass the account to Mercers and then onto whichever DCA is the favour of the month and you will get calls and letter s from them demanding payments.

You will need to send the account in dispute letter to them and be prepared to get dizzy on the DCA merry go round.

**Roadrunner** · 23rd November 2009, 18:32:PM

Re: Barclaycard reply to CCA request letters

Hi, Yes Redsnapper I sent off CCA request letters which they have responded to with the letters detailed above. I am now unsure as to how to proceed - Should I:
A) put my account into dispute now - if so do i continue to make payments or
B)should I complain about their response and see what happens or
C) Should I send off SARs for both of the accounts and if so do I send two SAR or one?

**Roadrunner** · 24th November 2009, 13:52:PM

Re: Barclaycard reply to CCA request letters

Thanx for the replies. Should I now put the accounts into dispute and if so can someone provide me a Dispute letter template for Barclaycard or should I complain first and if so can anyone provide help on what I should be saying. also, Should I be sending off SARs for the two accounts?

You can probably tell that I am unsure about how to proceed.

Help please!

**redsnapper** · 24th November 2009, 22:36:PM

Re: Barclaycard reply to CCA request letters

You need to put both accounts into dispute, but I still cannot understand the reference to CPR; a normal CCA request does not mention this.

Take a look at the "guru" CurlyBen's excellent posts HERE This should give you the basic procedures and some great templates.

If you stop paying, you'll immediately start receiving a constant stream of telephone calls from call centres around the world. These are on an autodialler system, so that the caller has no idea of whom they are speaking to until someone answers the call. Once you reply, your details will appear for them and they start asking for ID before continuing the call.

In my experience it's a waste of time taking these calls since you invariably speak to different people on each occasion and there is no continuity. Having now read the posts here, I do as suggested and insist all communications are in writing only.

**Roadrunner** · 25th November 2009, 12:06:PM

Re: Barclaycard reply to CCA request letters

Hi and thanks. Is there any benefit to me offering to make token payments due to my financial situation and put the accounts into dispute?

is a SAR the only way I will get a true, legible and signed CCA agreemnt from them??

**Roadrunner** · 15th December 2009, 10:31:AM

Re: Barclaycard reply to CCA request letters

I wanted to give an update on what's happening with my CCA request from Barclaycard. I sent them an account in dispute letter which I found on this website (thanks):

Dear Sirs,

Account No: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Re: my request under s78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

Thank you for your recent letters sent to me dated 16th & 17th November 2009, the contents of which are noted. However, the reply received by me does not fulfill your requirements under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account. On 11th November 2009 I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (CCA1974) s.78. A copy of this letter is enclosed for your perusal and ease of reference.

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on 30th November 2009.

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 1974 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document. In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

Furthermore; you should be aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 (+2) days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before your client enters into a default situation. This limit has expired.

As you are no doubt aware section 77(6) states:

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1) (a) He is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement. Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

As you have failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, failed to send a full statement of the account and failed to provide any of the documentation requested, any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS. Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect. This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 30 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data. It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; you must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends. Should you not respond within 30 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY action against an account whilst it remains in dispute. The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies:

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.
* You may not pass the account to a third party.
* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.
* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit. You have 30 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint. I therefore request a copy of your official complaints procedure which you are obliged to supply.

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter and look forward to hearing from you in writing within 30 days.

Yours faithfully

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I then received this reply on 5th December:

Barclaycard reply to Account in dispute letter – Received 5th December 2009

REFERENCE SECTION 78 of THE CREDIT CONSUMER ACT 1974
I write further to your letter whereby you note dissatisfaction to the documents you received in relation to a request made under Section 77/78 of the consumer credit act 1974.
Firstly, credit cards are regulated under section 78. Section 78(1) of the act states that the creditor shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement and a statement of account which is practicable to refer. Regarding a statement of account which is practicable to refer, the letters which we send in response to a section 78 (1) request included this information. To cover the issue of executed agreement.
HOW THE ACT DEFINES EXECUTED AGREEMENT
"Executed agreement" is defined in section 189 of the act as "a document, signed by or on behalf of the parties, embodying the terms of a regulated agreement”.
WHAT DO THE RULES SAY ABOUT PROVINDING A COPY?
The consumer credit (cancellation notices and copies of documents) Regulations 1983 ("the Regulations") made under the Act deal with how we are to provide a "copy" of an agreement. These Regulations provide that any copy of the agreement supplied to a debtor should be a 'true' copy. Regulation 3(2) provides that a copy may omit certain information, which allows you to be provided with a true copy, not a complete copy.
WHAT HAPPENS IF THE ORIGINAL AGREEMENT HAS BEEN VARIED SINCE IT WAS ORIGINALLY SIGNED?
The regulations also set out what should happen where the agreement has been varied since it was signed. Regulation 7 provides creditors with a choice of including in the copy of the executed agreement either a copy of the latest notice of variation relating to each discrete term which has been varied, or an easily legible statement of the terms varied. Regulation 7 does not state that the copy of the agreement shall include a statement of the original terms as well as a statement of the varied terms. Regulation 7 allows us to provide you with a "true copy" which sets out the terms and conditions current at the time of provision of the copy.
CONCLUSIONS IN RELATION TO THE DOCUMENT WE HAVE TO PROVIDE
A "copy" of an agreement will satisfy the requirements even if the signature box and/ or the signatures are not included as clarified by regulation 3(2) of the consumer credit (cancellation notices and copies of documents) regulation 1983.
The definition of "executed agreement" refers to a document embodying the terms of the regulated agreement. When this is read with regulation 7 - for agreements that have been varied - a copy of the original agreement would not embody its terms. A copy of the agreements varied would embody its terms. A copy of the agreement as varied would embody its terms.
The issue of what is an executed agreement has been interpreted in the High Court. It was held that an executed agreement begins the credit agreement which is sent to the cardholder when they receive their credit card; therefore, establishing what is the original executed agreement. When the agreement has been varied, Regulation 7 mentioned above applies.
To summarise, if the agreement has not been varied, we must send the original executed agreement; this would be the credit agreement currently regulated. If the credit agreement has been varied, we must send the current credit agreement as this will contain the terms of the regulated agreement. We have sent you this and the original executed agreement for reference.
To address any issue about our lack of compliance with section 60 of the consumer credit act 1974. Section 60 relates to the form and content agreements. All Barclaycard credit agreements are in compliance to this. You may state that the application form which we provided you, for reference when you made your request under section 78 does not adhere to section 60. this is not a complete copy of the application form, but rather an excerpt to show you signed a contract with us. When you completed your application form, the document would have been presented to you in full, in legible form, and would have adhered to the requirements under section 60 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.
With reference to the Civil procedure Rules (the CPR). We have provided you with sufficient information to allow you to understand our position. The CPR does not confer an automatic entitlement to documents before proceedings start. CPR 31.16 provides that a party may apply to the court for pre action disclosure in certain limited circumstances, which do not apply here. The application must be supported by evidence – and the usual order is for the applicant to pay the costs of the application, including the respondent’s costs, together with the respondent’s costs of complying with any order that is made as a result (CPR 48.1 (2)).
While there is no formal obligation on our part to provide documentation in answer to Validation of Debt correspondence, we have undertaken steps to provide you with the contractual terms under which your financial obligations arise and a statement of account.
I am fully satisfied that the sum outstanding by you remains legally due and payable. You should continue to repay the outstanding balance owed n your account in accordance with the terms of your credit agreement. If you do not, we may register a default against you with credit reference agencies, although we will formally notify you before doing so.
I hope this letter has helped with your concerns about the documents you have been supplies with under section 78 of the Consumer Credit At 1974. As our response fulfils the obligation under section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, You should carry on paying your debt you have accrued on your account. We do not class the account as in dispute, you have been supplied with the relevant documentation under section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, and we will carry on with the collection services. If you send us further correspondence questioning compliance with these areas of the law, we are not obliged to respond beyond the statutory response we have already given you. We would require you to provide comprehensive legal and documentary evidence to support your claim to ascertain whether response is necessary.

Yours sincerely
xxxxx

Barclaycard customer services

I am now unsure about how to proceed - I don't accept that they have provided me with a copy of my original executed agreement and the information they provided me in response to my CCA request and as mentioned in this latest letter doesnot have any signature on it! yet they state " but rather an excerpt to show you signed a contract with us"

All that I received from BC were a standard set of current BC terms of use and a 1995 BC conditions of use. THERE ARE NO SIGNATURES ON ANY OF THESE.

How should I proceed and a template letter would be greatly appreciated as I am starting to feel out of my depth here.

I have submitted a SAR on 1st December.

Roadrunner

**maruvian** · 15th December 2009, 10:56:AM

Re: Barclaycard reply to CCA request letters

The SAR is the only way to get a copy of the actual agreement for the account, there is no way for them to get round this. If you have more than one account with the same lender you only need one SAR and quote all account numbers on the request.

**Roadrunner** · 15th December 2009, 11:05:AM

Re: Barclaycard reply to CCA request letters

Thanks Maruvian

What should or can i do while waiting for the SAR reply. Can I restate that I consider the account to be in dispute and if so how do i say this to them??

I have found this reply letter to exact same letter from BC - Should I sent it?

Attn .........................
Date <Date>
Dear Sir / Madam
Account Ref No.... XXXX-XXXX-XXXX-XXXX
Re: Your letter of <Letter Date>
Thank you for your letter of the above date, the contents of which have been noted.
I would like to raise a number of inconsistencies in the information provided.
In paragraph 4 you refer to section 7 of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983. Whilst your comments are mostly accurate in isolation, I would draw your attention to paragraph 1 of section 7 which states:
(1) Where an agreement has been varied in accordance with section 82(1) of the Act
The relevant section of the Act being:
82. — (1) Where, under a power contained in a regulated agreement, the creditor or owner varies the agreement,
The implication of this section of the Act being that modification of the agreement can only take place where the prior version of the agreement makes provision for such an amendment within its terms. Ultimately the authority to amend an agreement must refer back to such a provision within the executed agreement. In the absence of such a provision, or the inability to authenticate such a provision, subsequent, modified agreements are invalid.
Furthermore, Section 7 paragraph 1 of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983, goes on to say:
(1) Where an agreement has been varied in accordance with section 82(1) of the Act, every copy of the executed agreement given to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act other than section 85(1) shall include either--
This paragraph clearly places a duty upon the creditor to provide a modified agreement (copy of) as an inclusion to a mandated provision of a copy of the executed agreement.
In paragraph 7 of your letter you refer to a high court interpretation of an executed agreement. However, I feel that the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 offer a more than adequate description of such an agreement and doubt that any ruling would vary the provisions of these regulations.
In section 9 you refer to a copy of an application as evidence of signature. I am confused by this as you have not sent me a copy of any part of an application form. In fact you did not send me any document bearing my signature, in copy or otherwise.
With regard to the contents of the final paragraph of your letter, and giving due regard to the above, it remains my belief that you have failed to comply with either the spirit or the intention of the relevant legislation.
In summary, I cannot accept your explanation relating to the documentation supplied in response to my s78(1) CCA request. It remains my contention that Barclaycard are still in default against the unabridged requirements of the Act.
Until such time as Barclaycard comply with the true expectations of the relevant legislation I will continue to acknowledge no debt to Barclaycard in respect of the above account.
Should Barclaycard continue to enforce the alleged agreement in violation of s78(6) of the Act then I may consider seeking redress under the Data Protection Act 1998. Additionally, I may consider it appropriate to serve an injunction upon Barclaycard to prevent any such data processing and rectify any prior processing whereby a violation of section 10 of the Data Protection Act 1998 is considered to have occurred. I may take further action, at my own discretion and on the advice of my legal advisors, should this be appropriate.
I look forward to your reply.

Advice please.

Roadrunner

**fuzzybrain** · 15th December 2009, 11:35:AM

Re: Barclaycard reply to CCA request letters

BC will refuse to acknowledge the account is in dispute, its their standard procedure.

All you can do is send a further dispute letter and put up with them refusing to acknowledge this.

In the end they will get bored/fed up/disinterested and will send the accout on to a DCA and the fun begins again.

This is after they have trashed you credit raing with missed payments and then finally default you.

The only way to stop this is and get the info rtemoved from your credit file is to take them to court, but you run the risk of them actually findign the agreement and/or a judge deciding to rule in their favour.

Its unliekly they will take you to court if they don't have the agreement, so if your credit history is rubbish anyway and shows no sign of recovery soon (i.e. if you have other defaults etc), you might as well let things run their course and wait for the account to become statute barred

**Roadrunner** · 15th December 2009, 11:58:AM

Re: Barclaycard reply to CCA request letters

Hi Fuzzybrain and thanks for your reply. My credit rating isnot good and I have recently been turned down for a balance transfer CC - I have many late payments (pretty much every month) over past couple of years but I have so far avoided any defaults and the account is not in arrears. I am very nervous about how to proceed.

Should I offer token payments until I get the SAR reply and take it from there?

If I do offer token payments based on a CCCS personal plan then will BC default me anyway?

I want BC to prove that they have an enforceable CCA with me and if they don't then i want it to be judged as unenforceable. If they do prove that they have an enforceable agreement then i will try to claim charges back and try to negotiate payment plan based on what I can afford.

**Ruby** · 15th December 2009, 14:20:PM

Re: Barclaycard reply to CCA request letters

Hi Roadrunner, please look at my thread 'CCA Agreements - any results' Two county court cases have been heard against BC in Ilford and Barnet, in both cases the balance was written off.

Much like Fuzzy, I have been on the merry-go-round with DCA's thanks to BC, but I now have just sent them a letter stating the above two court cases and telling them unless they want yet another court case hearing, then mark my account as settled. Watch this space and good luck with your case.

**Roadrunner** · 15th December 2009, 15:42:PM

Re: Barclaycard reply to CCA request letters

Hi Ruby

Thankyou. Any chance you could post the letter to them?

**Smasher** · 15th December 2009, 15:52:PM

Re: Barclaycard reply to CCA request letters

Originally posted by fuzzybrain View Post

BC will refuse to acknowledge the account is in dispute, its their standard procedure.

I don't know if it has been brought up here, just thought it worth mentioning that if there have been charges levied on the account, you could make a challenge on those at the same time. Then the account is in dispute regardless of whatever their opinion over the CCA.

Barclaycard reply to CCA request letters

Barclaycard reply to CCA request letters

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Announcement

Court Claim ?