Saved by Bankers incompetence? – A cautionary tale.

[basa48]

This is not a plea for help, more a monologue of probably what NOT to do in avoiding debts! :tinysmile_twink_t2:


It all starts in 2008 with a growing family and having to accept a HUGE reduction (25%!) in my wages and near doubling interest rates. I already could not afford the £350 per month I was paying to service my credit cards (all obtained 2000 to 2003) so joined the forum OTR.


The first bank I dealt with was Egg. I received a letter in 2008 (like 100,000 others at the time) informing me ‘We are Ending your Egg Agreement‘! (Incompetence #1).


There was a lengthy thread discussing the Egg letter asking if such a letter in ‘ending the agreement’ left us with no enduring agreement requiring us to make the contracted repayments. One member in particular was asking Egg to take this argument to court, but they repeatedly declined. This gave me the courage to stop paying Egg and ask for a copy CCA.


There was another discussion regarding the Egg Agreement wording, whether their terms 'Approved Limit' and 'Individual Limit' were synonymous with the prescribed term 'Credit Limit'. In the end a judge found in favour of Egg of course.


After lengthy exchanges, Egg stopped writing and passed the debt to a DCA who then took up the correspondence. I stuck to my guns and continued to not acknowledge the debt or make any payments.


In 2011 I got an email informing me Barclays had bought my account(along with 1000’s of others). I heard nothing more until 2013 when a DCA wrote asking me to pay a Barclaycard account with an account number I had never heard of! (Incompetence #2). I wrote back telling them I had never banked with Barclays and never had an account with the number quoted. To date that is the last I have heard.


The debt is now statute barred.


The next bank was MBNA. I asked for a copy CCA and received an obvious ‘mash up’ of my application form with the illegible T&Cs photoshopped onto the reverse along with a return address panel.(Incompetence #3). I stopped payments and told them it was unenforceable.


After a few months and a few exchanges they sent me a Default Notice asking for the full balance! I also discovered, thanks to a SAR request,that they had sold on the account before the 14 day limit.(Incompetence #4).


Eventually Experto got hold of the debt and I informed them of the dodgy CCA and DN. I also asked them to confirm the faulty DN. They sent me a ‘copy’of the DN with the original issue and payment dates all still on MBNA letter headed paper, but lo and behold now only asking for the arrears! (Incompetence #5). Ha, so now they were trying to deceive me, and I told them so.


I’ve not had many threats from them since and it is now also statute barred!


The last creditor was Tesco. Again after receiving a CCA that was an application form with up to date T&Cs (they quoted the current credit limit, not the one at inception) (Incompetence #6) I stopped paying and told them the CCA was unenforceable.


Then,with incredible naivety I sued Tesco for all the late payment& default charges made to the account!!!!


Amazingly Tesco failed to acknowledge the claim and I obtained Judgement in default! (Incompetence #7). They even paid my claim!


By my reckoning, since my claim also asked for the court to declare the agreement unenforceable, they cannot now start a claim through 'estoppel by aquiescence'. Game over?


So there we have it. I have cleared over £20k of debt through mainly the incompetence of the creditor banks aided and abetted by their DCAs.


Don't try this at home!!!!

[PAWS]

Re: Saved by Bankers incompetence? – A cautionary tale.

Basa, you are an inspiration!waving-good-afternoon-sun-smiley-emoticon.gif

[basa48]

Re: Saved by Bankers incompetence? – A cautionary tale.

Thanks PAWS, but I'm not sure I agree.

I had a lot of luck and I'm not sure I would get away with it all these days. The creditors and DCAs did make a lot of basic errors.

Particularly Tesco who didn't even acknowledge my claim. Arrogance or stupidity? Whichever, it cost them £250.

I once sued Littlewoods (as they were then known - now called 'Very' I think).

This was their 'credit agreement' (name, address & sig redacted). Yes that was it, nothing more! They actually took this to court - unenforceable of course.

[Guest]

Re: Saved by Bankers incompetence? – A cautionary tale.

Pleased to hear this is all now behind you.

As you say a cautionary tale.
The Egg things were basically flawed arguments and although in your case they failed to recover their money it was due to the fact that there was no point in pursuing more than any problems with the agreements or technical challenges. The others similarly were a matter of just battening down the hatches and waiting it out in one form or another.
I often wonder if these reports of success are in fact successful , what I mean is, this all started in 2008 and you rare clear today, that is seven years of your life spent dealing with these people, god knows how many hours lost to worrying about the letter through the post, the possible court action dropping on the mat.

There are people whose lives revolve around playing letter tennis with DCAs and creditors, half the time there is no intention of pursuing the debt but the constant interaction keeps the dialogue and the tension going for years and years.

I know it was different back in 2006-8, I think now there are better options out there.

[basa48]

Re: Saved by Bankers incompetence? – A cautionary tale.

The Egg 'thing' was weird. They emailed me in 2011 advising me I was now a Barclaycard customer but still under the Egg card agreement but referring me to new T&Cs online. Which would be the operative ones?

I became aware that in 2013 Barclaycard sold on the debt and I wonder why they would do that if the account was collectable? Anyway the DCA wrote a 'hello' letter enclosing Barclaycard's 'goodbye' letter but quoting a completely different account number to the old Egg card. Can they just change my card account number and T&Cs without my agreement. Surely this amounts to a new agreement?

Moreover, if the argument regarding the infamous 'We Are Ending Your Egg Agreement' letter was flawed why did Egg never seek a judicial ruling?

Yes the letter tennis was stressful, as you say, wondering when the claim letter would arrive. But in the final analysis I knew that you can't get blood out of a stone and I would probably end up on an affordable payment plan if things took a turn for the worse.

To me the gamble was worth it, and in my case worked out well.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Saved by Bankers incompetence? – A cautionary tale.

This is not a plea for help, more a monologue of probably what NOT to do in avoiding debts! :tinysmile_twink_t2:

I probably wouldn't put it quite like that!

It all starts in 2008 with a growing family and having to accept a HUGE reduction (25%!) in my wages and near doubling interest rates. I already could not afford the £350 per month I was paying to service my credit cards (all obtained 2000 to 2003) so joined the forum OTR.

Just like a lot of us, at the time of the credit crunch, down to joining *that forum*

The first bank I dealt with was Egg. I received a letter in 2008 (like 100,000 others at the time) informing me ‘We are Ending your Egg Agreement‘! (Incompetence #1).

There was a lengthy thread discussing the Egg letter asking if such a letter in ‘ending the agreement’ left us with no enduring agreement requiring us to make the contracted repayments. One member in particular was asking Egg to take this argument to court, but they repeatedly declined. This gave me the courage to stop paying Egg and ask for a copy CCA.

There was another discussion regarding the Egg Agreement wording, whether their terms 'Approved Limit' and 'Individual Limit' were synonymous with the prescribed term 'Credit Limit'. In the end a judge found in favour of Egg of course.

After lengthy exchanges, Egg stopped writing and passed the debt to a DCA who then took up the correspondence. I stuck to my guns and continued to not acknowledge the debt or make any payments.

In 2011 I got an email informing me Barclays had bought my account(along with 1000’s of others). I heard nothing more until 2013 when a DCA wrote asking me to pay a Barclaycard account with an account number I had never heard of! (Incompetence #2). I wrote back telling them I had never banked with Barclays and never had an account with the number quoted. To date that is the last I have heard.

In my case, I heard nothing more, full stop. Egg as such never had my address since it was always an online only card. I never got a replacement card when it expired in 2005 while I was abroad but I kept the direct debit going till Jan 2010. At the time the Egg cards were owned by Citi and I had a current account with Citi, yet the connection was never made. :grin:

In 2011 I got the generic email saying I should "keep making repayments as usual", so I did, I was paying £0.00 and carried on doing so. :lol: :lol: :lol: I had two accounts with Barcraps since 2008, yet the connection was never made and Egg never 'found me'. :grin: :grin: :grin:

The debt is now statute barred.

Well done! :high5:
Mine still has a year to run... :clock: :clock: :clock:

The next bank was MBNA. I asked for a copy CCA and received an obvious ‘mash up’ of my application form with the illegible T&Cs photoshopped onto the reverse along with a return address panel.(Incompetence #3). I stopped payments and told them it was unenforceable.

I got much less than that, just letters saying they couldn't retrieve the agreement as it was originally an ancient (early 90s) A&L card. Last thing I heard was in December 2011, responding to my letter of December 2010 (yes, a year later). :tinysmile_kiss_t4:

So there we have it. I have cleared over £20k of debt through mainly the incompetence of the creditor banks aided and abetted by their DCAs.

Don't try this at home!!!!

I DID! :whoo:
Still a year to go but not heard a peep since Jan 2012... ray: ray: ray:

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Saved by Bankers incompetence? – A cautionary tale.

Basa, you are an inspiration![ATTACH=CONFIG]16988[/ATTACH]

Thanks PAWS, but I'm not sure I agree.

I do! :whoo: :whoo: :whoo:

I had a lot of luck and I'm not sure I would get away with it all these days. The creditors and DCAs did make a lot of basic errors.

Probably not for newer accounts, especially post-April 2007 due to changes in legislation.

There are people whose lives revolve around playing letter tennis with DCAs and creditors, half the time there is no intention of pursuing the debt but the constant interaction keeps the dialogue and the tension going for years and years.

I know it was different back in 2006-8, I think now there are better options out there.

Not always, as far as I can tell, none of my main accounts were ever sold since I've never received NoAs. The only one was an old Citi card with a £500 limit that I didn't even intend to default on and got defaulted when Citi sold to Opus and they stopped collecting the DD, got sold to 1st Crud. Otherwise, nothing, not a peep in 3 years. :tinysmile_kiss_t4:

[Guest]

Re: Saved by Bankers incompetence? – A cautionary tale.

The Egg 'thing' was weird. They emailed me in 2011 advising me I was now a Barclaycard customer but still under the Egg card agreement but referring me to new T&Cs online. Which would be the operative ones?

I became aware that in 2013 Barclaycard sold on the debt and I wonder why they would do that if the account was collectable? Anyway the DCA wrote a 'hello' letter enclosing Barclaycard's 'goodbye' letter but quoting a completely different account number to the old Egg card. Can they just change my card account number and T&Cs without my agreement. Surely this amounts to a new agreement?

Moreover, if the argument regarding the infamous 'We Are Ending Your Egg Agreement' letter was flawed why did Egg never seek a judicial ruling?

Yes the letter tennis was stressful, as you say, wondering when the claim letter would arrive. But in the final analysis I knew that you can't get blood out of a stone and I would probably end up on an affordable payment plan if things took a turn for the worse.

To me the gamble was worth it, and in my case worked out well.

There was a ruling in the credit limit argument of course, the cards which were terminated were high risk in any case. low chance of recovery so I am not surprised they were ditched or sold of for pennies.
Yes it worked for you but it was a long game. Accounts now which are in default through no fault of the debtor have far more options than you did thank goodness.

[basa48]

Re: Saved by Bankers incompetence? – A cautionary tale.

Interesting reactions.

TBH what I did I would not recommend.

My accounts were old (c.2000/2003) and the creditors were much less pedantic about keeping records. Back then they couldn't wait to throw credit at you not thinking anyone would dare challenge the viability of the contracts.

What really spurred me on was that not one creditor or DCA got close to instigating a claim. My thinking being 'if they could win they would surely go for it'. I can only assume there was a lot more 'low hanging fruit' they could collect.

The Egg / Barclaycard 'thing' still fascinates me. Did they decide not to fight the 'Ending Your Agreement' because so many continued paying, or was it an enormous mistake? Did Barclays, by issuing apparently a new card number with new T&Cs kill any chance of pursuing the original Egg debt?

I don't know, but I'm happy I didn't have to fight it! :tinysmile_hmm_t2: