CCA Requests

[DJM10118]

Hi All,

New to the site so looking for advice on the following. I currently have debts of £13k which I have reduced from £35k with a lot of penny pinching and hard work. I have sent CCA request to all with varying degrees of success.


LLoyds Loan £4500 £185 pm 0% DMP with Lloyds

received letter saying they need signature in order to complete my request

LLoyds Card £880 £80 pm 0% DMP with Lloyds

received statement of account and copy original recon of terms.

Halifax Card £3200 £60 pm 0% DMP with Blair Oliver & Scott

received statement of account and two separate copies of recon terms. Still looking for original CCA but apparently complied under S77-79 therefore fully enforceable.

Bank of Scotland Loan £2300 £45 pm 0% DMP with Blair Oliver and Scott.

received original cca but no statement of account

MBNA Card £1000 £50 pm 0% DMP with Idem Servicing

no response after 14days to my CCA request

MBNA Card £1000 £50 pm 0% DMP with Idem servicing

as above - no response


Could you assist in my next course of action for any of the above


Thanks in advance

[FlamingParrot]

Re: CCA Requests

Hi All,

New to the site so looking for advice on the following. I currently have debts of £13k which I have reduced from £35k with a lot of penny pinching and hard work. I have sent CCA request to all with varying degrees of success.

Hi and welcome!

Well done for considering using the CCA to challenge your debts. As you say you are on a DMP, presumably you would like to concentrate your limited resources on those debts that are more likely to be enforceable, I hope I'm making the right assumption here. :noidea:

With regards to 'success', in this case less may be more.

LLoyds Loan £4500 £185 pm 0% DMP with Lloyds

received letter saying they need signature in order to complete my request

You've got to options:

1. Argue that they don't need your signature to comply; or
2. Resend the letter and sign on a signature strip as below:

If you want to argue about their signature request, you can send the following. It all depends on whether you'd like to delay the process or speed it up. :decision:

Dear Sirs

Account No: XXXXXXXX

Thank you for your letter dated XX/XX/XXXX, the contents of which have been noted. In your letter you make reference to requiring my signature.

I'd like to draw your attention to the fact that the Consumer Credit Act 1974 does not require that I supply you a copy of my signature. If it is for Data Protection purposes then I can supply you with documentation to substantiate my identity to you. However, I note that to date you have sent statements and correspondence containing sensitive private information to my address and so I have to ask, if you are so concerned that you are corresponding with the correct person why has it taken you so long to raise this?

As you are aware, disclosing data without adequate checks of identity is contrary to the 7th principal of Data Protection, listed in schedule 1 of the Data protection Act 1998:

7. Appropriate technical and organisational measures shall be taken against unauthorised or unlawful processing of personal data and against accidental loss or destruction of, or damage to, personal data.

I note that there is no provision that removes the requirements of the act to provide this information on time, even if you are unsure of my identity. As such, I look forward to receiving the documentation requested, within the next 14 days.

Yours faithfully,

[FlamingParrot]

Re: CCA Requests

LLoyds Card £880 £80 pm 0% DMP with Lloyds

received statement of account and copy original recon of terms.

Halifax Card £3200 £60 pm 0% DMP with Blair Oliver & Scott

received statement of account and two separate copies of recon terms. Still looking for original CCA but apparently complied under S77-79 therefore fully enforceable.

Bank of Scotland Loan £2300 £45 pm 0% DMP with Blair Oliver and Scott.

received original cca but no statement of account

With the above, it would be useful if you could scan or take a picture of the documents, hoto: remove all personal details and post them up here so we can look at them. See this thread for instructions: http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...r-details-safe!)

They would say they are fully enforceable, wouldn't they?

A lot of people are fobbed off with generic T&Cs or terms that never applied to their agreement.

MBNA Card £1000 £50 pm 0% DMP with Idem Servicing

no response after 14days to my CCA request

MBNA Card £1000 £50 pm 0% DMP with Idem servicing

as above - no response

Have you got TWO MBNA cards? Most DCAs/debt purchasers won't respond within 14 days since they have to obtain the documents from the original creditor, in this case, MBNA. Can I ask, were these originally MBNA cards or were they bought from another lender? If the latter, in many cases, agreements cannot be found at all! That was certainly the case with my own MBNA, which I've not paid in 4 years. :grin: :clock:

You seem to be paying quite a lot every month, almost as much as if you were making minimum payments.

[DJM10118]

Re: CCA Requests

Thanks for the response. Yes I am currently paying approx. £500 per month to clear these debts. I could possibly pay less although don't want them hanging over my head indefinitely. I will try post something up for you to look at. There appears to be a lot of different views on want can be challenged due to various court cases Carey vs HSBC etc

Well one card was MBNA and the other was Virgin which I believe was also MBNA. These two accounts were never defaulted so I am in the process of challenging this based on unfair practice in relation to the use of AP markers over defaults

[FlamingParrot]

Re: CCA Requests

Thanks for the response. Yes I am currently paying approx. £500 per month to clear these debts. I could possibly pay less although don't want them hanging over my head indefinitely. I will try post something up for you to look at. There appears to be a lot of different views on want can be challenged due to various court cases Carey vs HSBC etc

One thing that's often forgotten is the fact that Carey was the CLAIMANT in that case. Before the test case, lots of people were using solicitors and CMCs to challenge the enforceability of agreements in court. That can no longer be done, however, it is still possible to use unenforceability to keep creditors at bay and stop them from taking action until the debt goes statute barred. That's exactly what I'm doing, 4 years down, 2 to go. :clock: :clock: :clock:

Well one card was MBNA and the other was Virgin which I believe was also MBNA. These two accounts were never defaulted so I am in the process of challenging this based on unfair practice in relation to the use of AP markers over defaults

That is quite common when your are on a DMP, and depends on the interpretation of the OFT technical guidance:

Variations in payment schedules - Keeping the record up to date

17 Lenders should not file a default where there is a genuine and agreed variation in the payment schedule. (The only exception to this is where a debt management programme is put in place where the level of repayment represents only a token sum which is only accepted by the lender because the customer cannot afford to pay more. The reporting of debt management plans is discussed at paragraphs 22-26.) Customers should not be led to believe that they have agreed a change to the arrangement to repay a loan, when the lender considers that the customer has defaulted. A lender filing a default in these circumstances is likely to be processing personal data unfairly. In all cases it is important that lenders and debt advisers explain to borrowers how their credit reference files will reflect the changed situation. This is necessary to avoid misunderstandings and disputes about what a customer has agreed to and what will be reported to a credit reference agency as a result of variations in payment schedules.

In considering variations in payment schedules, the following situations should be recorded differently on the credit reference file. These are the rescheduling of an agreement, an ‘arrangement to pay’, debt management plans and unsatisfactory payments.

21 An ‘arrangement to pay’

This involves a temporary, short-term (up to six months) arrangement where the lender agrees to accept reduced payments.

• The original payment terms will still be shown on the credit reference file and arrears will accrue which will be shown on the monthly status record.
• The account will be marked by an ‘arrangement to pay’ marker (which distinguishes the account from one where the customer has behaved less responsibly).
• Where such an ‘arrangement to pay’ breaks down, a default may be filed when the total value of the arrears is equivalent to three monthly payments under the original terms. However, this should not result in the customer being placed in a worse position than someone who has made no effort to pay whatsoever.
• If a customer fails to return to contractual payments after an ‘arrangement to pay’ has expired, then the lender can file a default immediately, as long as this would not place the customer in a worse position than they would have been in, had they not made the arrangement.

Examples
1. If a customer makes an ‘arrangement to pay’ at a reduced rate but breaks that arrangement by making no payments for three months, the lender should only automatically file a default if

• the total value of the arrears is equivalent to three monthly payments under the original terms, and
• the lender would normally file a default at this stage in the arrears process.

So no default should be filed if the lender normally records defaults when accounts are six monthly payments in arrears and the customer has not yet reached that level of indebtedness, even though he may have missed payments under the ‘arrangement to pay’.
2. If a lender accepts an ‘arrangement to pay’ as an alternative to filing a default, and the customer fails to make any of the agreed repayments, then a default can be filed straight away.

[DJM10118]

Re: CCA Requests

If we could deal with the MBNA first as you seem to have some success with these. Both accounts are the same in as much of how much I pay monthly, period of AR and outstanding debt to be cleared. So..

MBNA x 2 £1000ea

Started AR in Jan 2009 and been running the same amount every month since Jan 2009. My Call Credit report reads as follows

AR markers from March 2009 to Nov 2011
Changed to DM markers from Dec 2011 to April 2013
Changed to OK markers from May 2013 to present

So my argument with MBNA is that the AR should only be used as a short term 6 months agreement, after which time a default should be applied if the account is not brought up to date. In theory they should have applied a default to the account no later than July 2009. At the moment as the AR markers are on a rolling 5-6 years and they will not come off my report until March 2018 or 2019 some 3 -4 years after the equivalent default would be removed.

I was under the impression that the ICO guidelines state that they cannot be used in place of a default and should not place the debtor in a worse position that somebody who made no attempt to pay there debts. I would have been better paying £1 per month and defaulting back in Jan 2009. I would have only paid about £60 off the debt and it would be removed Jan 2015.

The problem now is that as Idem haven't responded to my CCA request I could stop paying them until the documents show up. The caveat to this is that they may place a default on the account which would last 6 years. Having said this the default will still come off at the same time as the AP markers so could save myself £2k and no worse off on my credit file

[FlamingParrot]

Re: CCA Requests

MBNA x 2 £1000ea

Started AR in Jan 2009 and been running the same amount every month since Jan 2009. My Call Credit report reads as follows

AR markers from March 2009 to Nov 2011
Changed to DM markers from Dec 2011 to April 2013
Changed to OK markers from May 2013 to present

So my argument with MBNA is that the AR should only be used as a short term 6 months agreement, after which time a default should be applied if the account is not brought up to date. In theory they should have applied a default to the account no later than July 2009. At the moment as the AR markers are on a rolling 5-6 years and they will not come off my report until March 2018 or 2019 some 3 -4 years after the equivalent default would be removed.

I was under the impression that the ICO guidelines state that they cannot be used in place of a default and should not place the debtor in a worse position that somebody who made no attempt to pay there debts. I would have been better paying £1 per month and defaulting back in Jan 2009. I would have only paid about £60 off the debt and it would be removed Jan 2015.

Indeed that's exactly what they say:

21 An ‘arrangement to pay’

This involves a temporary, short-term (up to six months) arrangement where the lender agrees to accept reduced payments.

• The original payment terms will still be shown on the credit reference file and arrears will accrue which will be shown on the monthly status record.
• The account will be marked by an ‘arrangement to pay’ marker (which distinguishes the account from one where the customer has behaved less responsibly).
• Where such an ‘arrangement to pay’ breaks down, a default may be filed when the total value of the arrears is equivalent to three monthly payments under the original terms. However, this should not result in the customer being placed in a worse position than someone who has made no effort to pay whatsoever.
  

The problem now is that as Idem haven't responded to my CCA request I could stop paying them until the documents show up.

If they do show up AND they supply a properly executed agreement, rather than a poor C&P job.

The caveat to this is that they may place a default on the account which would last 6 years. Having said this the default will still come off at the same time as the AP markers so could save myself £2k and no worse off on my credit file

I like it when people look at things in positive light. :grin:

Having said that, you've got nothing to lose arguing about the way your account has been reported to the CRAs and quoting the bit in red above, insisting that a default should have been filed in 2009. :thumb:

[DJM10118]

Re: CCA Requests

Thanks. I have already sent the letters to MBNA, Citi Bank and Lloyds expressing my concerns over the adverse data on my cra file. In the Lloyds case they didn't apply the default until 2 years after I had entered an AR with them. I had also doubled the amount I was paying them and the same month they applied the default??? Maybe they are suggesting I didn't keep to the agreement by trying to pay back more monies??

Would you send MBNA/IDEM a failure to respond letter as they had my CCA request on the 27th Jan. I may see what MBNA say about the AR markers first. If they agree to back date the default to Jan 09 then I will stop paying Idem. This way regardless of whether they come up with documents the data will disappear from my cra in Jan 15 never to return, also they cannot apply a secondary default:tinysmile_grin_t:

[FlamingParrot]

Re: CCA Requests

Thanks. I have already sent the letters to MBNA, Citi Bank and Lloyds expressing my concerns over the adverse data on my cra file. In the Lloyds case they didn't apply the default until 2 years after I had entered an AR with them. I had also doubled the amount I was paying them and the same month they applied the default??? Maybe they are suggesting I didn't keep to the agreement by trying to pay back more monies??

Utterly ridiculous! :mad2: :mad2:

Would you send MBNA/IDEM a failure to respond letter as they had my CCA request on the 27th Jan.

I wouldn't send them a reminder, I'd just wait for their next letter, then say they account is in dispute as they haven't complied with your CCA request. That's exactly what I've done. :thumb:

If they write to you, post up here and I'll post up a reply. :typing:

I may see what MBNA say about the AR markers first. If they agree to back date the default to Jan 09 then I will stop paying Idem. This way regardless of whether they come up with documents the data will disappear from my cra in Jan 15 never to return, also they cannot apply a secondary default:tinysmile_grin_t:

If MBNA don't agree, you should contact the ICO. As per their Technical Guidance, The APs should be for a 6 month period, not for years!

21 An ‘arrangement to pay’
This involves a temporary, short-term (up to six months) arrangement where the lender agrees to accept reduced payments.
The original payment terms will still be shown on the credit reference file and arrears will accrue which will be shown on the monthly status record.
The account will be marked by an ‘arrangement to pay’ marker (which distinguishes the account from one where the customer has behaved less responsibly).
Where such an ‘arrangement to pay’ breaks down, a default may be filed when the total value of the arrears is equivalent to three monthly payments under the original terms. However, this should not result in the customer being placed in a worse position than someone who has made no effort to pay whatsoever.
If a customer fails to return to contractual payments after an ‘arrangement to pay’ has expired, then the lender can file a default immediately, as long as this would not place the customer in a worse position than they would have been in, had they not made the arrangement.

[DJM10118]

Re: CCA Requests

I will hold fire on stopping the payments for now and see what response I get from MBNA on these two accounts.

I will see if I can post up the other documents I have received to see if the are indeed CCA compliant. I will not be taking the creditors word for it

[FlamingParrot]

Re: CCA Requests

I will hold fire on stopping the payments for now and see what response I get from MBNA on these two accounts.

I thought you said above that it wouldn't make any difference to your credit file one way or another. :noidea:

I will see if I can post up the other documents I have received to see if the are indeed CCA compliant. I will not be taking the creditors word for it

Of course you shouldn't! :lie: :lie: :lie:

[DJM10118]

Re: CCA Requests

As it currently stands if I stop paying MBNA/Idem they may issue a default on the account which will last another 6 years from this year so this will not be removed until early 2020:tinysmile_cry_t:. As I have already been on an AR since 2009 (5 years) I don't really want a further 6 years before this is removed from my cra. If however MBNA/Citi do agree do back date the default date as defaults where never applied to these accounts then a further default will be unable to be placed on the account by the DCA.

Ideally if MBNA back date the defaults as per ICO guidelines they will come off early next year along with most of my other defaulted accounts. Once a default is applied by MBNA then another one cannot be applied regardless of how the account is run. So if I stop paying for non-compliance after MBNA issue a default then the only way to effect me is to come up with the correct documents or take me to court which I doubt will happen.

If MBNA don't agree to apply a back dated default then yes it would make no difference to me at all. 6 years AR markers or 6 years default...both the same in IMO:tinysmile_grin_t: plus £2k to pay towards other debts. Either way I could save £2k towards the enforceable debts. Hopefully I will have a response within a few weeks so wont make much difference if I wait for a response from MBNA/Citi

[DJM10118]

Re: CCA Requests

Update

Looks like Lloyds are playing stalling tactics. Sent them a letter stipulating that I didn't need to supply a signature for CCA request. Received another letter today suggesting they were concerned to receive my letter although didn't actually state what part of it concerned them or which letter they were refereeing to (also included "how to complain" leaflet) I have sent a few letters to Lloyds although this one seems to be from the same address as the original asking for my signature so I suspect its re the CCA request.

I think I may send a non compliance letter on Monday to Lloyds as they have had more than enough time to respond on this matter. Could anybody post one up for me to send?

[FlamingParrot]

Re: CCA Requests

Update

Looks like Lloyds are playing stalling tactics. Sent them a letter stipulating that I didn't need to supply a signature for CCA request. Received another letter today suggesting they were concerned to receive my letter although didn't actually state what part of it concerned them or which letter they were refereeing to (also included "how to complain" leaflet) I have sent a few letters to Lloyds although this one seems to be from the same address as the original asking for my signature so I suspect its re the CCA request.

I think I may send a non compliance letter on Monday to Lloyds as they have had more than enough time to respond on this matter. Could anybody post one up for me to send?

Normally you don't have to remind them of your CCA request, as the account would be unenforceable until they comply. However, since you are making substantial payments and may be contemplating stopping them, here you go:

Dear Sirs

Ref: xxxxxxxx

I refer to my letter dated XX/XX/XXXX where I made a formal request under s.77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, for a true copy of the agreement for the above account. The fee of £1.00 was also enclosed.

You have failed to comply with my request, therefore this account is unenforceable until you comply. You must be aware that if a true copy of the agreements is not provided within 12 working days, the debt becomes unenforceable. This means a creditor cannot:

• make the debtor pay the debt before they're supposed to;
• get a court judgment against the debtor

As this account is clearly unenforceable, I am considering cessation of payments toward this account, so I do expect you to respond within the next 14 days or you'll leave me with no option but to stop paying into the account, until such time you do comply.

Yours faithfully

[DJM10118]

Re: CCA Requests

Thanks FP

I just wanted to cover myself that I had sent the appropriate letters etc just in case I have to prove I followed procedure.