CCA Request

[chris260483]

Re: CCA Request

just awaiting someone to check it

[FlamingParrot]

Re: CCA Request

is this now UE? surly they cant provide a reconstructed copy on the assumption that thats what they gave me and then when i DSAR them send me something that falls short of this?

this is strange, there is no way i would have done this on xmas day for 1, in one of my earlier post i put up the reconstructed copy they sent me prior to my DSAR request.

if i now have this does it mean the reconstructed stuff is not valid as it doesnt match what i actually had/have now been sent?

Im sure if i done a form like this i would have done it in branch.

whats my best course of action?

or does UE no longer exist due to the fact they can just knock u.
p T&C at their leisure ?

I would say this was a very poor attempt at cobbling something together. I'd be sending them something like this, telling them there are missing prescribed terms (amongst other things) :thumb:

Dear Sirs

Account No: XXXXXXXX

On XX/XX/XXXX I wrote requesting that you supply me a true copy of the executed credit agreement for the above account. In response to this request I was supplied a document, a copy of which is attached, that did not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (CCA1974), as it does not contain all the prescribed terms. The document that you are supposed to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contains the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in s.61(1) of the CCA(1974) and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document. In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

The prescribed terms, as required by section 60(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974, are not at all present and therefore the documents provided do not constitute a ‘true copy’. The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (SI/1557) states:

2: Legibility of notices and copy documents and wording of prescribed Forms

(1) The lettering in every notice in a Form prescribed by these Regulations and in every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall, apart from any signature, be easily legible and of a colour which is readily distinguishable from the [background medium upon which the information is displayed].

The recent McGuffick and Carey cases confirmed that a lender should submit upon request a valid true copy of the original CCA and also went on to suggest that both the creditor and debtors name and address are clearly displayed - the Judge dealt with this point at paragraph 60 of his judgement when he said this:
"As a matter of common sense It is difficult to see how a copy of a document can omit the names of the parties. It might he thought that the address of the debtor, however, was immaterial, at least to the debtor, who can be assumed to know what it was at the time, if different from his present address. However, as noted above any application of the concept of materiality must not override the requirements of section 78 and the Copies Regulations properly understood. In my view it is clear that the name and address must be provided"

I appreciate and understand the provision of the recent Carey v HSBC case that stipulates a reconstituted agreement can be provided, I'd like to also point out that I am disputing the actual existence of such an original which means the Carey case is irrelevant as without one the account would still be deemed unenforceable. Carey only went to prove that if you could not provide an original, for whatever reason, but had proof on your systems/records that certain conditions were in place at that time then a recon could be submitted only in-so-far as to satisfy your s.78 request. If you do not have an original then a recon cannot be produced.

The OFT Guidance clearly states that lenders would be acting unfairly, and potentially in breach of their consumer credit licenses, if they misled borrowers by:

• hiding or disguising the fact that there was never a proper signed agreement in the first place
• providing only a copy of the current terms and conditions, not the original ones

Similarly, in line with recent OFT Guidance surrounding Unenforceability, I presume you're aware that the OFT has stipulated the following;
Sections 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 outline the information creditors must provide to debtors under fixed-term, running account & Hire Agreements. Under these sections a debtor can pay £1 to get:

• a copy of their agreement
• copies of some of the other documents mentioned in their agreement
• a statement of account

If this information is not provided within 12 working days the debt becomes unenforceable. This means a creditor cannot:

• make the debtor pay the debt before they're supposed to
• get a court judgment against the debtor

In view of the above, this account is unenforceable until you provide me with the original purported document, if it exists. If it does not, then you must confirm this to me in line with your licensing guidance, as detailed above.

Yours faithfully,

[FlamingParrot]

Re: CCA Request

already done that, and on my ppi link i have done a spreedsheet to make sure its correct

just awaiting someone to check it

When it comes to PPI, Bill-K, :yo: Turboman :yo: and Di30 :yo: are your people. :first:

[Bill-K]

Re: CCA Request

When it comes to PPI, Bill-K, :yo: Turboman :yo: and Di30 :yo: are your people. :first:

Most kind of you, FP. I've now shifted my @$$ and compared the offer with the spreadsheet in Chris's other thread. My suggestion is to take the money and run.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoxQ4Ul_DME

[Sapphire]

Re: CCA Request

I've removed the copies of your paperwork as we can see your details still, can you please blank them out completely and re-post them.
Many thanks

[FlamingParrot]

Re: CCA Request

I've removed the copies of your paperwork as we can see your details still, can you please blank them out completely and re-post them.
Many thanks

The problem with using black felt marker pens is that they are semi-transparent and you can still see through the black ink. It's always best to cover the details with bits of paper before scanning or taking a picture of the documents. hoto:

[labman]

Re: CCA Request

....... or put them into paint and cover the personal details. :beagle:

[dogtired]

Re: CCA Request

I did that but recently it would not let me attache them so I had to reprint, scan and attach as a pdf!:smash:

[FlamingParrot]

Re: CCA Request

....... or put them into paint and cover the personal details. :beagle:

I use photoshop to achieve that, no idea about paint!

I did that but recently it would not let me attache them so I had to reprint, scan and attach as a pdf!:smash:

You could try a free image hosting service where you can upload JPEGs, such as this one: http://postimage.org

[chris260483]

Re: CCA Request

The thing I don't understand is when I asked for a cca they sent me a reconstructed copy of terms and conditions but when I have done a dsar they have sent me a true signed copy (the docs I scanned on). Now what ones do I take as the correct docs? The reconstructed one I got with cca request or the docs I got with dsar?

[labman]

Re: CCA Request

With a CCA request they're perfectly entitled to send you a reconstituted copy and still comply with your request. With a SAR they MUST send you copies of everything they hold (there are exceptions to this, but it's a good general rule of thumb).

Maybe they couldn't find the original without much searching when you did the S78 request. With the SAR they have to do a reasonable amount of hunting around to find what they hold about you.

[chris260483]

Re: CCA Request

So is it UE on what they have provided?

[charitynjw]

Re: CCA Request

The reconstituted docs which you have already posted up show a last payment as Aug 2002.

Any chance posting up the SAR stuff?

[labman]

Re: CCA Request

So is it UE on what they have provided?

Looking at post 84, I would say until they send the T&C's from inception it is UE. However, currently I think you are paying just £2 per month. Whether or not it is UE, you have to ask yourself if it is worth cancelling that payment arrangement for the sake of that £2.00. If you cancel it, they then come up with the T&C's and you ask for a payment arrangement again, you may just end up with a CCJ when they refuse. You may not, but is it worth the risk?

[FlamingParrot]

Re: CCA Request

The thing I don't understand is when I asked for a cca they sent me a reconstructed copy of terms and conditions but when I have done a dsar they have sent me a true signed copy (the docs I scanned on). Now what ones do I take as the correct docs? The reconstructed one I got with cca request or the docs I got with dsar?

They serve different purposes. They are entitled to send a recon to satisfy a s.77-79 CCA request, which is what they did. With the SAR, they have to send you everything they hold about you. The tricky bit here is that, although what appears to be a 'true' copy of the alleged 'agreement' had no T&Cs, if you got that as a response to a SAR as opposed to a CCA request, you can't really argue they haven't fully complied with your CCA request, because a SAR is a request under the DPA not the CCA. Clear as mud, uh? :sad:

The reconstituted docs which you have already posted up show a last payment as Aug 2002.

Any chance posting up the SAR stuff?

I recall seeing it, so perhaps these were the documents that were removed because personal details were still visible. :noidea:

The OP has been making token payments so this wouldn't be SBd, that must refer to last contractual payment. :sad: