Arrow Global CCA Documents Supplied - Can someone have a look??

[Smilesallround]

I applied for this loan from EGG over the telephone back in 2005 defaulted 2006. The debt was bought by Britannica (using Moorcroft to collect) and now seems to be bought by Arrow Global (same company) using Wescot to collect.

Have they complied with request?

I am not sure as i did it over the telephone i cant see how they have.

Also they sent back my £1 postal order for the CCA request! Bizarre.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Arrow Global CCA Documents Supplied - Can someone have a look??

They have complied by sending you a recon, however, if you apply over the phone, you should still have been sent an agreement to sign and, unless you've done a great job of blanking it completely, I can't see anything in the signature box! I also noted it says "please tick this box - this is instead of providing your signature" and the printout has a reference to "CCAonline" in the filename at the bottom, which suggests an internet application. :confused2:

If you had applied online in 2005, then a tickbox would have fulfilled the role of a signature, but you say you applied over the phone, in which case you should have received an agreement to sign. Are you positive you didn't apply online? :typing:

Also you say you defaulted in 2006, have you been making payments after that? When was the last payment?

[Smilesallround]

Re: Arrow Global CCA Documents Supplied - Can someone have a look??

They have complied by sending you a recon, however, if you apply over the phone, you should still have been sent an agreement to sign and, unless you've done a great job of blanking it completely, I can't see anything in the signature box! I also noted it says "please tick this box - this is instead of providing your signature" and the printout has a reference to "CCAonline" in the filename at the bottom, which suggests an internet application. :confused2:

If you had applied online in 2005, then a tickbox would have fulfilled the role of a signature, but you say you applied over the phone, in which case you should have received an agreement to sign. Are you positive you didn't apply online? :typing:

Also you say you defaulted in 2006, have you been making payments after that? When was the last payment?

Yes i defo remember applying for it over the telephone and a women from Egg going through the questions and it was agreed. I pretty much remember all the online apps ive done and the ones not online. I think i had access to online banking with Egg maybe thats it.........i have no idea but i did apply for it over the phone.

I have been making payments via DMP as i didnt know about all this then.

Can they take you to court supplying a recon?

I am not sure what to reply them with now? I heard they were useless but they all seem to be churning out things from 2005. They also sent back my £1 postal order what is all that about??

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Arrow Global CCA Documents Supplied - Can someone have a look??

Can they take you to court supplying a recon?

I am not sure what to reply them with now? I heard they were useless but they all seem to be churning out things from 2005. They also sent back my £1 postal order what is all that about??

You may want to look at this brand new post from consumer credit specialist PT2537 :yo: on his blog, with regards to what can be produced in court: http://paulatwatsonssolicitors.wordp...t-arose-today/

No idea why they returned the PO.

If you wanted to argue that those were not the terms you agreed to when you took out the loan, you would have to look for discrepancies regarding things such as quoted charges, etc. You would also have to try and remember what happened when you got the loan, did they send you an agreement to sign and return? Or they just sent you the card? As noted on PT's post, if you didn't sign an agreement you have to say so, but you have to make sure you got all your facts right. :thumb:

[Smilesallround]

Re: Arrow Global CCA Documents Supplied - Can someone have a look??

You may want to look at this brand new post from consumer credit specialist PT2537 :yo: on his blog, with regards to what can be produced in court: http://paulatwatsonssolicitors.wordp...t-arose-today/

No idea why they returned the PO.

If you wanted to argue that those were not the terms you agreed to when you took out the loan, you would have to look for discrepancies regarding things such as quoted charges, etc. You would also have to try and remember what happened when you got the loan, did they send you an agreement to sign and return? Or they just sent you the card? As noted on PT's post, if you didn't sign an agreement you have to say so, but you have to make sure you got all your facts right. :thumb:

Cant remember all I know I did it over phone and agreement was sent I didn't apply online. So this can't be the real terms and conditions. Not sure how to write it in letter? Any ideas

i remember loan was for 14,000 I remember so why does it have 14,800? This is incorrect

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Arrow Global CCA Documents Supplied - Can someone have a look??

What's the current status of this account? Are you making any payments (tokens, DMP, etc.)? If not, when did you last pay?

Can you give us a bit of history on this, i.e. when did you default, what happened before it got sold to Arrow/Britannica? If you have another thread with this information, can you please post the link to it? We need a bit of background. :typing:

[Smilesallround]

Re: Arrow Global CCA Documents Supplied - Can someone have a look??

What's the current status of this account? Are you making any payments (tokens, DMP, etc.)? If not, when did you last pay?

Can you give us a bit of history on this, i.e. when did you default, what happened before it got sold to Arrow/Britannica? If you have another thread with this information, can you please post the link to it? We need a bit of background. :typing:

The loan was taken out and approved over the telephone with Egg in 2005 ans defaulted on 2006 or 2007 interest stopped and late charges. I started making payments to it via DMP token payments over 6 years ago. The account got sold to Britannica 3/4 years ago and when i CCA'd them in April 2013 they said they will send information and then i get letter apparently it got sold to Arrow Global in Feb 2013 who are the same company. arrow Global responded to my CCA request and sent me the documents and my £1 postal order back and not Britannica.

I made the last payment to them in April 2013 i have stopped since the CCA.

I think its odd as i know i applied over the telephone and the amount was for £14,000. I remember this clearly so the credit lent on the agreement is incorrect and im not sure why there is a online terms agreement.

[The Debt Star]

Re: Arrow Global CCA Documents Supplied - Can someone have a look??

Were you sold PPI with that? I applied for an Egg account in 2005 (and also defaulted in 2006 LOL) and they had put in PPI as part of the package. Just a thought. Means the balance purchased by Arrow/ Briannica (same company) is incorrect.

[Smilesallround]

Re: Arrow Global CCA Documents Supplied - Can someone have a look??

Were you sold PPI with that? I applied for an Egg account in 2005 (and also defaulted in 2006 LOL) and they had put in PPI as part of the package. Just a thought. Means the balance purchased by Arrow/ Briannica (same company) is incorrect.

I cant remember not sure all i know i applied for £14,000 loan and they have some other loan amount. Could they have knocked up this agreement?

What happened in your case did you CCA Arrow Global? What did they produce? I am surprised they produced this for a loan that old.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Arrow Global CCA Documents Supplied - Can someone have a look??

I cant remember not sure all i know i applied for £14,000 loan and they have some other loan amount. Could they have knocked up this agreement?

What happened in your case did you CCA Arrow Global? What did they produce? I am surprised they produced this for a loan that old.

From what you say, there's every indication that they have. If it was me, I'd be sending them a letter saying so, without going into details regards telephone vs online application. Looks like they are trying to fob you off with an online application because they can just send you a recon of the terms and tell you that you would have agreed to them by ticking the box, as you applied after Jan 2005.

Dear Sirs

Account No: XXXXXXXX

On [Date] I wrote requesting that you supply me a true copy of the executed credit agreement for the above account. In response to this request I was supplied a document, a copy of which is attached, that did not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (CCA1974), primarily as you sent a reconstituted copy. Without the agreement, I am unable to adjudge my position effectively. For this to occur, I would require a "true copy" of the actual agreement that apparently exists and I therefore appeal to you to fulfil my request. In considering my request, I ask that you take a common sense approach and do not hold to the line that you have provided all that is expected of you nor the recent test case in Manchester, namely, and to be known as: Carey v HSBC Bank Plc [2009] EWHC 3417 (QB) (23 December 2009). The recent McGuffick and Carey cases confirmed that a lender should submit upon request a valid true copy of the original CCA and also went on to suggest that both the creditor and debtors name and address are clearly displayed - the Judge dealt with this point at paragraph 60 of his judgement when he said this:

"As a matter of common sense It is difficult to see how a copy of a document can omit the names of the parties. It might he thought that the address of the debtor, however, was immaterial, at least to the debtor, who can be assumed to know what it was at the time, if different from his present address. However, as noted above any application of the concept of materiality must not override the requirements of section 78 and the Copies Regulations properly understood. In my view it is clear that the name and address must be provided"

In MBNA v McCullagh; the Judge ruled;

"The terms and conditions are plainly not a copy of those on the original agreement. There may only be one difference identified (it is difficult to tell from the illegible copy of the original) but that is enough. The obligation is to provide "a copy of the executed agreement". This plainly cannot be a copy of the original agreement. It is not open to the claimant to say that the difference is 'de minimis'. They have to provide a copy of the original (reconstituted or otherwise)"

There are also several other recent cases that alleviate the Carey Judgment such as Hayes v HFC, at Blackpool county court in July 2010. She successfully overturned a charging order on her home. Judge Bell agreed that the reconstituted agreement was not accurate. Then you have the case of Kotecha v Phoenix in which Phoenix attempted to recover a debt owed on a HFC bank credit card. The appeal judges agreed the bank had not been able to supply an accurate copy of the original agreement.

The OFT Guidance clearly states that lenders would be acting unfairly, and potentially in breach of their consumer credit licenses, if they misled borrowers by:

• hiding or disguising the fact that there was never a proper signed agreement in the first place
• providing only a copy of the current terms and conditions, not the original ones

Similarly, in line with recent OFT Guidance surrounding Unenforceability, I presume you're aware that the OFT has stipulated the following;

Sections 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 outline the information creditors must provide to debtors under fixed-term, running account & Hire Agreements. Under these sections a debtor can pay £1 to get:

• a copy of their agreement
• copies of some of the other documents mentioned in their agreement
• a statement of account

If this information is not provided within 12 working days the debt becomes unenforceable. This means a creditor cannot:

• make the debtor pay the debt before they're supposed to
• get a court judgment against the debtor

As this account is clearly unenforceable, I expect you to write back and confirm that no further action will be taken and that the account is now closed and no further correspondence will take place.

Yours faithfully,

[Smilesallround]

Re: Arrow Global CCA Documents Supplied - Can someone have a look??

From what you say, there's every indication that they have. If it was me, I'd be sending them a letter saying so, without going into details regards telephone vs online application. Looks like they are trying to fob you off with an online application because they can just send you a recon of the terms and tell you that you would have agreed to them by ticking the box, as you applied after Jan 2005.

Thanks flaming parrot I will send this as I am positive it was 14k applied for. Not the amount they stating.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Arrow Global CCA Documents Supplied - Can someone have a look??

Thanks flaming parrot I will send this as I am positive it was 14k applied for. Not the amount they stating.

...and it was a telephone application, so it should have your signature, none of that tick box nonsense! :nono:

[Smilesallround]

Re: Arrow Global CCA Documents Supplied - Can someone have a look??

In these situations what do you do if they say its real and you say its not...............i am having a similar situation with Sainsburys bank via Credit Experto. Does this get to court, will they take me to court?

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Arrow Global CCA Documents Supplied - Can someone have a look??

No-one can tell you for sure whether they will issue court proceedings or not, Arrow do go to court sometimes, but they seem to pick mostly those people who ignore their letters. If this ended up in court, your recollection would be important. If you know you applied over the phone and then you received the terms with the card, you can argue this purported agreement cannot be the real thing. The cases I've seen where the consumer has won in court have all relied on the debtor's recollection of events. In one such case, the debtor remembered the application form being in a glossy magazine where the reverse was an advert, so the terms couldn't have been there. :nono:

The devil is in the detail, if there's a discrepancy in the interest rates, charges, etc. between the supplied terms and what shows on your statements, that can also be used to prove the terms are not those you agreed to. In the meantime, the idea is to avoid court proceedings. :thumb:

[Smilesallround]

Re: Arrow Global CCA Documents Supplied - Can someone have a look??

No-one can tell you for sure whether they will issue court proceedings or not, Arrow do go to court sometimes, but they seem to pick mostly those people who ignore their letters. If this ended up in court, your recollection would be important. If you know you applied over the phone and then you received the terms with the card, you can argue this purported agreement cannot be the real thing. The cases I've seen where the consumer has won in court have all relied on the debtor's recollection of events. In one such case, the debtor remembered the application form being in a glossy magazine where the reverse was an advert, so the terms couldn't have been there. :nono:

The devil is in the detail, if there's a discrepancy in the interest rates, charges, etc. between the supplied terms and what shows on your statements, that can also be used to prove the terms are not those you agreed to. In the meantime, the idea is to avoid court proceedings. :thumb:

At what point to you SAR them?

Also can you have a look at my other link the response I've got from sainsburys CCA?