M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

[PlanB]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

Yes I understand the argument, I am sure your lawyer will way up the pro's and cons for you. I re read the judgment last night, and I still think that the variation/ modified agreement angle has been a little over stated in most reports, only my opinion. The solicitor who was there will of course have a better idea.
I am only reading the transcript, but it does read like the judgment was based on three other issues as well.
Together with the fact that this was only in the lower court and sets no precedent.
I would only say treat it with caution, you are doing the right thing by taking advice in my opinion.

The lawyer who was there is PT2537 who is a member on this site. I know that because I was standing next to him in court since Plan B was the Defendant Diana Mayhew in the case :faint:

There were four legal arguments and we won on three of them. But you only need one to get a claim dismissed Counsel Paul Brant made the point that the credit card wasn't a simple *upgrade* or variation of the original store card's Tc & Cs it was a whole "transformation". This was the main legal argument and we won on it.

The judgment may have been made by a county court but it sent shockwaves through Santander and M & S which have about 5 million of these accounts between them. Santander had the right to appeal and they chose not to. Maybe that's because they didn't want this landmark judgment ratified by the COA. The claimant's silence speaks volumns :tape:

[Mr $quandaŁot]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

Back to the original 'agreement', M&S sent me an application form with some largely illegible terms and conditions photocopied; it was a clear recon. Whether that would be enough for them to win had there not been a transformation from a store to a mastercard is debatable. In that situation I would probably request to visit their offices in Chester and see what they actually have, but I don't think it's relevant as things stand now.

As I mentioned before, I haven't heard from a single DCA as we speak but I'm not ready to relax yet.

[PlanB]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

No new agreement signed for their mastercard.

Just curious whether M&S (HSBC) might serve the court papers regardless in the hope that I wouldn't defend? I would of course and have made it crystal clear on all my correspondence with them.

The creditor can't serve court papers without first sending you a Letter of Claim or they'll be in breach of Civil Procedure Rules. That will give you the opportunity to spell out your reasons for believing the account cannot be enforced in court. Regrettably in my Santander case the creditor's solicitor Howard Cohen skipped that step.

I also have a M & S credit card which began life as a store card with no new agreement signed in between. But M & S chose to play games with me when I pointed this out to them. They produced a copy of a letter they say that they sent me at the time informing me that my store card was being replaced by the new product and inviting me to call them if I didn't want it. A sort of inertia selling effort but one the OFT may have let them get away with (although I doubt a court would).

This baffled me since I have a remarkable memory and I had never seen that letter before. But then I noticed that the address on the top of the letter related to a house I had sold three years before that M & S letter was *sent*. I had been living at that address when I opened the first store card and can only assume that they used that as a reference point for this imaginary letter. That puts the 'con' in reconstituted if you ask me.

I wrote back with documents from Land Registry showing the house had been sold and the completion statement from my solicitor as further proof. I also drew their attention to the fact that they had been sending me statements to my new home/address for years after that. I accused them of forgery. I haven't heard from them for over a year. I wonder why :confused2:

[Mr $quandaŁot]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

Furthermore, I wonder how successful DCAs really are? All major smartphones now have an option to block numbers, resulting in calls going to voicemail. Some people are already giving up landlines and if not, there's a truecall option.

I think many DCAs rely on the fact that most people don't know their consumer rights, confuse debt collectors and bailiffs etc. Some M&S Pre Legal Recoveries template letters are also trying to use this to their advantage i.e. threats after threats without mentioning that in reality to actually get any of their threats materialised they would need a court order!

[gravytrain]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

If you read the judgement you will see that the defendant won on point one and the judgement is in favour of the defence on points 2 &3 but the claimant would have won on point 4 (s78) (i understand the defendant would have appealed this if it mattered)

M1

I believe point one was the matter of the un-executed original agreement not the section 82 issue that was point 2.

This is the point I was trying to make.

[gravytrain]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

The lawyer who was there is PT2537 who is a member on this site. I know that because I was standing next to him in court since Plan B was the Defendant Diana Mayhew in the case :faint:

There were four legal arguments and we won on three of them. But you only need one to get a claim dismissed Counsel Paul Brant made the point that the credit card wasn't a simple *upgrade* or variation of the original store card's Tc & Cs it was a whole "transformation". This was the main legal argument and we won on it.

The judgment may have been made by a county court but it sent shockwaves through Santander and M & S which have about 5 million of these accounts between them. Santander had the right to appeal and they chose not to. Maybe that's because they didn't want this landmark judgment ratified by the COA. The claimant's silence speaks volumns :tape:

Yes I know, and I agree, fact is that it hasn't been "ratified", which argument was unsuccessful ?

[Mr $quandaŁot]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

I believe point one was the matter of the un-executed original agreement not the section 82 issue that was point 2.

This is the point I was trying to make.

I still think not defending should they serve the papers in my case would be extremely silly and that's what they would be hoping for anyway.

[gravytrain]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

I still think not defending should they serve the papers in my case would be extremely silly and that's what they would be hoping for anyway.

I would take advice, depending on what papers they have and what evidence they present, same as any other case lacking precedent.

The problem with cases like this is that some tend to thin k that one size fits all, in this case all card upgrades are unenforceable, it simply is not the case, it depends.

If there are other supporting arguments as in Plan Bs case all the better.

[gravytrain]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

I think many DCAs rely on the fact that most people don't know their consumer rights, confuse debt collectors and bailiffs etc. Some M&S Pre Legal Recoveries template letters are also trying to use this to their advantage i.e. threats after threats without mentioning that in reality to actually get any of their threats materialised they would need a court order!

Undoubtedly

[Mr $quandaŁot]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

I would take advice, depending on what papers they have and what evidence they present, same as any other case lacking precedent.

The problem with cases like this is that some tend to thin k that one size fits all, in this case all card upgrades are unenforceable, it simply is not the case, it depends.

If there are other supporting arguments as in Plan Bs case all the better.

I have taken legal advice and they have clearly told me the situation is very similar to Santander vs. Mayhew indeed. Please see my comments about their application form, though I don't think it's that relevant in this case. I do have one another argument against them if need be.

Whilst the Santander vs. Mayhew case wasn't tested at the highest level, I have been told that practically the only way another judge could rule differently is to say that the Judge Manners ruling was wrong.

Of course, I'm hoping not to get the court papers but I for one will defend vigorously!

[ODC]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

......

[ODC]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

I have taken legal advice and they have clearly told me the situation is very similar to Santander vs. Mayhew indeed. Please see my comments about their application form, though I don't think it's that relevant in this case. I do have one another argument against them if need be.

Whilst the Santander vs. Mayhew case wasn't tested at the highest level, I have been told that practically the only way another judge could rule differently is to say that the Judge Manners ruling was wrong.

Of course, I'm hoping not to get the court papers but I for one will defend vigorously!

The thing about the Santander v Mayhew case is that so many million people are in the same position. If the mighty Santanader did not think it worthwhile to contest this judegement then this is IMHO one of those cases were one size fits almost everyone.

[gravytrain]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

The thing about the Santander v Mayhew case is that so many million people are in the same position. If the mighty Santanader did not think it worthwhile to contest this judegement then this is IMHO one of those cases were one size fits almost everyone.

Do all these people not have any signed agreement ?

Were there section 78 or dn issues?

Even if there were , one size rarely fits all in civil litigation I have found. If it did we would not need solicitors.

[gravytrain]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

The simplest thing of not speaking to them on the phone completely fecks them up because they rely on their bullying threatmonkeys to force you into a payment by lying as to what powers they actually have. Similarly if they send one of their door steppers they can easily be disposed of by two words the second of which is OFF

I think we are at cross purposes here, you are referring to DCA pre litigation, i am referring to post.

[ODC]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

Do all these people not have any signed agreement ?

Were there section 78 or dn issues?

Even if there were , one size rarely fits all in civil litigation I have found. If it did we would not need solicitors.

Sorry you appear to be missing my point.

M&S issued these credit cards to millions of people who did not ask for them. These were issued in replacement for their storecards and often with huge Credit Limits.

As I stated twice earlier they were advised at the time that what they did was illegal but by the time they realised this it was too late. I return to my original statement that as there is so much money involved and Santander could afford the best lawyers that money can buy then why did they not contest this judgement. It seems simple to me.