Defence help - two default notices sent for one agreement

[Prism]

Hi all,

I am fighting some of my debt.

I have a personal loan from RBS.

The account has been defaulted and payment ceased a year ago.

I am soon to be in court for this matter and would like to prepare a defence.

I have been sent two default notices for this agreement. One was in November 2009 and the other was in January 2010. Both appear to comply with all the correct terminology.

Could you tell me why this is likely and whether it means anything in my favour?

The court date is not too long away, infact in less then two weeks!

Please note:- For those who are wondering why I am in court and for what reason, there is some history all ready posted by myself on this forum. To cut a long story short, I used a CMC which went bust and they did so at the same time as they advised litigation, leaving me to pick up the pieces. I have received advise on this already from this forum

I have no idea if there is a valid CCA in existence as it used to be a mint loan. I believe that as litigation has commenced that I cannot request one so I am basing my defence arounf the default notices.

Any advice is appreciated and will be listened to.

Thanks

Prism.

[TiredofPaying]

Re: Defence help - two default notices sent for one agreement

Hi Prism, I thought I start the ball rolling and ask a few questions so that those more experienced can have a butchers.

Roughly (month and year)what is the date of the original agreement?

If you have it could you say whether it is a personal loan that is regulated under the Consumer Credit Act 1974? Presumably it is under £25,000 excluding charges (again a rough amount).

Did you get statements from the inception of the loan? You may not have all of them if your agreement started before April 2007.

Did you get an executed copy (you signed and dated then they signed and dated then they sent it back to you) sent to you within 7 days of the agreement being signed by you.

Have you received a county court claim form? If so what does it state in the particulars of claim (POC)? In the POC does it refer to any document - an agreement maybe?

If you have received a claim, have you acknowledged it? You have 14 days from the date of service which I believe is 5 days after the date on the claim form.

Have you received a Termination Notice (TN)?

I'm probably only just in front of you as far as a court case goes but I've learnt quite a lot from other people by reading a lot of the posts on this site and like you I'm tired of paying. I'm not legally qualified but hopefully somebody will point out when I've screwed up.

ToP

[shamen]

Re: Defence help - two default notices sent for one agreement

May be worth trying this one - CPR 31.14

http://www.consumerwiki.co.uk/index....Your_Advantage

Can any of the people in the know on the forum here confirm if this was a valid approach? It may be of help in this case as (assuming its a valid direction) you can see what the other side are going to use in advance and prepare a defence accordingly.

Also could a stay be asked for while the CPR 31.14 request is being fulfilled?

[Angry Cat]

Re: Defence help - two default notices sent for one agreement

Hi all,

I am fighting some of my debt.

I have a personal loan from RBS.

The account has been defaulted and payment ceased a year ago.

I am soon to be in court for this matter and would like to prepare a defence.

I have been sent two default notices for this agreement. One was in November 2009 and the other was in January 2010. Both appear to comply with all the correct terminology.

Could you tell me why this is likely and whether it means anything in my favour?

The court date is not too long away, infact in less then two weeks!

Please note:- For those who are wondering why I am in court and for what reason, there is some history all ready posted by myself on this forum. To cut a long story short, I used a CMC which went bust and they did so at the same time as they advised litigation, leaving me to pick up the pieces. I have received advise on this already from this forum

I have no idea if there is a valid CCA in existence as it used to be a mint loan. I believe that as litigation has commenced that I cannot request one so I am basing my defence arounf the default notices.

Any advice is appreciated and will be listened to.

Thanks

Prism.

One, cannot submit a 'Defence' until one has been provided with 'ALL' the documents that, the claimant claim relies upon, including the original credit agreement and the inception terms of same etc.

Bl**dy CMC'!
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
http://www.justice.gov.uk/civil/proc...rts/part31.htm

31.14;
31.15
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
I have just looked back through your prior posts.

Please can you advise, when was the application for credit made?

Secondly, could you please post up the DN (minus of personal details, of course).

Lastly, was the agreement terminated?

[Prism]

Re: Defence help - two default notices sent for one agreement

Thankyou everybody for your replies.

Tiredofpaying: All the answers are yes upto the court proceedinhs point. From then onwards a default judgement was awarded to the lender as I did not acknowledge the court documentation. I was told by my CMC to do nothing as they would respond!! I do not have a termination notice in my possession.

Shamen:- Some aspects of your link appear relevant so thankyou. I may well edit the letter on the link and send it to the lender's solicitors.

Angry Cat: Thanks for your assistance. The original loan I believe was taken out sometime in 2002? I have attached links to the default notices. Please note that I have been sent two DN's for one agreement.

RBS DN 1: Sent 4th November 2009, given till 21st November 2009

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/6811/rbsdn1page1.png

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/5600/rbsdn1page2.png

RBS DN 2: Sent 6th January 2010, given till 25th January 2010

http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/2469/rbsdn2page1.png

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/733/rbsdn2page2.png


I am unaware of the termination as I do not have a notice for this?!

Any assistance will be hugely appreciated

I am in court on 19th August!!

Prism

[Angry Cat]

Re: Defence help - two default notices sent for one agreement

The key here is the 2002 credit agreement, which would be unlikely to comply and;
the inception terms of the agreement, together with the terms as varied.

In short, you are disadvantaged because you have not been provided with same.

[shamen]

Re: Defence help - two default notices sent for one agreement

Its good to see the amount is over £5k - I believe that CPR 31.14 should apply in your case. Send them that letter special next day delivery and you should have all of the correct documentation within a week. If they fail to comply then I would imagine that would have some merit with a judge. Somone please correct me if I am wrong

[LuggerBugs]

Re: Defence help - two default notices sent for one agreement

Absolutely Shamen. No agreement, no enforcability.

So it's actually in their interest to produce one. Otherwise they risk going to court with a "Here's one I prepared earlier" copy, and expect everybody to believe that it looks like the same agreement you MIGHT have signed.

[Angry Cat]

Re: Defence help - two default notices sent for one agreement

God only knows what the CMC was doing?

Even, RBS know that they cannot go to court without a copy of the original credit agreement and the original terms that relate to that agreement.

Prism, you must use the CPR's to obtain disclosure.

[Prism]

Re: Defence help - two default notices sent for one agreement

Thanks a million everybody!!

The court case is on Thursday 19th August which is in 7 days!! Shoud I still send the CPR request??

With regards to the CMC, they sent the request to the lender for the CCA. I am unaware whether the lender sent it directly to the CMC or not and nor do I have any proof of this, as I sent the authority form off and did not keep a copy.

When I attend on the day, will I be critisiced by the judge for not acting earlier? The judgement has already been awarded and I have had it set aside. My grounds were that I had a full defence to the claimant as the agreement is non enforceable (written on a wing and a prayer!!)

Also, has anybody had a chance to view my default notice and if yes, could you tell me whether it is compliant or not?? Does anybody know why I have been sent two DN's??

Thanks again so much everybody, it is comforting to have your support.

[Angry Cat]

Re: Defence help - two default notices sent for one agreement

Send off your CPR request post haste and by Special Delivery!

[shamen]

Re: Defence help - two default notices sent for one agreement

Any way OP can ask for some kind of extension from the court while waiting for 31.14 response? It seems to be cutting it a bit fine - 7 days from today is 18th august, so that leaves only one day to pull things apart.

[Angry Cat]

Re: Defence help - two default notices sent for one agreement

Any way OP can ask for some kind of extension from the court while waiting for 31.14 response? It seems to be cutting it a bit fine - 7 days from today is 18th august, so that leaves only one day to pull things apart.

Seems, perfectly reasonable bearing in mind the circumstances.

Important, to show the judge that you are pursuing disclosure of docs. and in particular the alleged credit agreement and inception terms of same.

[TiredofPaying]

Re: Defence help - two default notices sent for one agreement

Hi Prism,

you say you are in court 19th August which is next week I was hoping you could say how they have asked you to appear. Is this via the blue N1 County Court Claim form? If so, does it mention any document under the Particulars of Claim? If it does then you are entitled to send a CPR31.14 (as previously mentioned by Shamen) to ask for a copy of the document as you can't defend the claim unless you see on what they are basing their claim. It's unlikely that you will get to see any doc before the 19th. Are you sure that you have to be in court or is that a date that is on the blue N1 claim form?

By the way, I was looking at your first DN and IF IT WAS SENT 2nd class (is that 'flat rate' as shown in the little box at the top?) then it does not give you enough time to remedy the breach. 4th Nov gives a service date of 9th Nov and a remedy date of 23rd Nov. Your DN says 21st Nov. The mandatory paragraph following the remedy date says that 'If the action required by this notice is taken BEFORE the date shown' which means the 20th or earlier. Confusing or what? You are supposed to be left in no doubt as to what you are supposed to do and by when you are supposed to do it.

Sorry if I missed something in one of your replies but I need to know more about the 19th Aug. Is this an actual appearance date or just a reply by date.

ToP

[Prism]

Re: Defence help - two default notices sent for one agreement

Right, I will not be home until post 5pm. Post offices will be closed at 5.30pm.

Must send via special deliver the CPR request.

To summarise, should I write to the courts where I am attending too? Should I also let the lender know of my decision?

Thanks

Prism