maharg v m&S

[ODC]

Re: maharg v m&S

Just to add that I'm in the same boat and that over time M&S have passed by account on to 3 or 4 different DCA's. I just ignore most of them.

In my case, they can't (so far at least) actually find a copy of the signed agreement and so ended up sending me a copy of somebody elses with their information tippexed out. This was mostly illegible and did not appear to contain all/any prescribed terms.

There is also the added complication of them switching from the charge card to the credit card which the OFT was unhappy about. I may be wrong, but I think this may make them think twice about starting proceedings on earlier agreements as it could be detrimental if a precedent was set on this.

PS...I haven't made any payments for 12 to 18 months now.

Im in the same boat. Passed around the pond life with the usual threats of dire action none of which were followed through.

Now with Red Castle/Gothia who ring up about twice a week and are totally ignored

[mahargrisch]

Re: maharg v m&S

sorry double post

[ODC]

Re: maharg v m&S

Im in the same boat. Passed around the pond life with the usual threats of dire action none of which were followed through.

Now with Red Castle/Gothia who ring up about twice a week and are totally ignored

RED CASTLE/ GOTHIA will pass it on to IQOR

They just have with mine in spite of M&S never sending a notice of Assignment.

If these so called agreements were so good do you not think that M&S would have pursued them through the Courts rather than selling them on at 10% to Gothia who have subbed them out to IQOR

[pandora]

Re: maharg v m&S

Hi there ...


M&S (after 18mths ) quoted in ther last letter to me, their claim regarding the OFT approving what they did with regards to a blanket change over of card and card type.

So this must be a recent ploy that their legal dept have conjured up to try and bat away peeps correctly saying that the CCA they recd for a charge card does not satisfy the requirements for a credit card.


The reality is the OFT came down on them like a tonne of bricks and were dismayed at what they had done. It was the OFT who MADE M&S include a telephone number in the later cards and letters issued - which still doesn't make it right.


This is what I have put in my last letter to them regarding the OFT claims, this was over a month ago - no reply yet ...


"Furthermore, another false assertion is that you claim the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) recommended that you could simply supply a variation of charge card T&Cs document, instead of a newly executed agreement for the replacement credit card – a claim and statement that is completely untrue. What the OFT actually told you was that the automatic replacement of charge card with a credit card without a written request from the Consumer, was illegal and a breach Under section 51 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, whereby it is noted the OFT successfully argued that it was an offence to send a "credit token" to a consumer unless it has been requested in writing. Which is somewhat contradictory to your recent claims, and should you dispute this fact I put you to strict proof to provide supporting documentary evidence from the OFT in support of your assertions".


Can't wait to see where they go from here ....not doubt another template letter quoting their tedious 61(b) scam .... !!

• But the situation is they have a CCA for a charge card - which has no prescribed terms.
• They replaced the chargecard with a credit card - for which they admit there is no CCA at all
• They state that they are relying upon the CCA for the chargecard as a regulated agreement for the credit card - ok lets say in some parallel universe the court accepts it does - but there is still no pres terms in - so its still unenforceable.

They really are silly buggers ...!!!

P :beagle:

[ODC]

Re: maharg v m&S

BBC NEWS | Business | M&S backs down in credit card dispute


This makes interesting reading as does this

M&S rapped over 'illegal' credit card | Mail Online

and this

OFT shows MS the yellow card - Telegraph


Now all we need is something in writing from the OFT.

Perhaps a Freedom of Information request would help

[mahargrisch]

Re: maharg v m&S

Had a reply from Ms Hughes same old guf.

I have had a chance to look through the reconstituted T&Cs as well as the T&Cs that were purported to be original and there is no mention of any Interest Rate at all.

This is just a thought.
I originally took out my storecard in 1986 and the helpful representative filled in the form with me and we left the box for opting out of ppi unticked.

In the scheme of things the ppi for the storecard did not amount to much a few pence here and there.The application form does say in the ppi box "see over for details".The relevant condition in the recon T&Cs and originals is just about how the premium will be charged.No information at all about the insurance policy,what it covers or where I can find further information on it

Fast forward to my shiny unrequested credit card without an application form or agreement and therefore no facility to opt in or out of ppi and the situation changes.
Between 03 and 07 ppi charges amount to £1500.00 and with CI of £3000.00 or Stat Int of £500.00 this has become a significant amount.
Now surely whether the method of sending out a new credit token was approved by the OFT as M&S state or not, even M&s recognise that the credit card was different to the storecard.

When M&S Money introduced the &MORE Credit Card a letter was sent to you giving the choice whether to accept the credit card or by using the free phone number provided to opt out.

If as I believe the credit card was an unsolicited credit token, then the ppi on the card was definitely unsolicited.

If I were to dispute the charges for ppi and ask them to deduct charges + CI from the balance on the basis that no signed agreement for card then could not have agreed to being sold ppi do you think this would put the cat among the pigeons.

They could of course maintain that the original storecard agreement(No prescribed terms) covers the ppi but they continually harp back to the fact that my acceptance and use of the new card is evidence of my agreement and acceptance of its terms and conditions.Still no information either way on the ppi to allow me to make an informed decision .

And as we are all fond of quoting the OFT made M&S change the wording in its store card agreement that purported to give MSFS an unrestricted unilateral right to change the terms of the agreement.


Any thoughts
m

[mahargrisch]

Re: maharg v m&S

http://www.oft.gov.uk/news-and-updat...2003/pn_128-03

The relevant line is that "the OFT is taking no futher enforcement action at this time".


What about firing off a few complaints to the OFT about msfs using the "This process was recommended to us by the Office Of Fair Trading" punchline.

[pandora]

Re: maharg v m&S

IMHO they are sucessfully getting you to go "off topic" - and forget the real foundation of your complaint.

Ignore their ramblings about the OFT, s61(b), we believe enforceable ... blah .. blah .. blah

All that is important is ...

• They have provided a chargecard application, which they say acts as a regulated agreement for their purposes
• They are relying upon this document as a regulated CCA for the credit card in question
• The copy "agreement" provided in either case, contains no prescribed terms within it
• Nor is there any reference to them or where they may be found

In my case, they now claim that the pres terms were on the reverse of the app.

But they have forgotten that when they sent the original copies of the CCA (18mths ago) - they also sent the back of the signed doc - which showed a M&S branded return pre-paid address for the applilcation to be sent off for processing.

Interestingly, after this was pointed out to them when they cited "the t&cs are on the reverse" ... all futher copies sent of "agrement" tellingly omit this page ... which tells its own story.

So, I have put them to strict proof, that should the matter proceed to a judicial hearing, they will be required to provide the original document supporting their assertions - which are wholly disputed and proven as being inaccurate by documentation already provided in this matter.

Back to you .....

If I were you I would just keep sending your "in dispute" letter to them .... no pres terms mean in breach of s60(1) of the CCA, thereby only enforceable by a court under s65, who are prohibited by s127 as no pres terms ... and round and round we go ..

This is all I keep doing .... yes its letter ping pong ... but I never let them have the last word, and I tell you they'll get fed up and run out of stamps long before I will ... :biggrin1:

P :beagle:

[Amethyst]

Re: maharg v m&S

Ref moving from store to credit card - you want to have a read of Zhanzhibars Debenhams thread.

Theres a link on there to an OFT undertaking by GE Money with regards method of upgrading of cards like this - dated 2004 I think.

[ODC]

Re: maharg v m&S

Any update re M&S chargecard accounts being turned in unrequested Credit Cards

[pandora]

Re: maharg v m&S

Well I haven't heard from them since last Aug - when they were told in no uncertain terms that what they had supplied, and what they were claiming re changing a store card to a credit card - was and is utter rubbish.

As a side issue, I did hear from someone that all M&S store cards which were transferred to credit cards under this campaign, have effectively been "written off" by HSBC as unenforceable - due to the fact that no credit card agreement was actually executed by the card holder - similarly the store card agreements being sent out in response to CCA requests are equally bogus - improperly executed - no prescribed terms or any ref to them.

If I hear anything more about mine, I will post up here so that you will have an idea what tactic .. if any .. there are trying to employ in "getting round" their massive and greedy balls up !!

P :beagle:

[ODC]

Re: maharg v m&S

As a side issue, I did hear from someone that all M&S store cards which were transferred to credit cards under this campaign, have effectively been "written off" by HSBC as unenforceable - due to the fact that no credit card agreement was actually executed by the card holder - similarly the store card agreements being sent out in response to CCA requests are equally bogus - improperly executed - no prescribed terms or any ref to them.


P :beagle:

Excellent News if it can be confirmed. Of course if they pass it to the likes of Muck Hall or the Leeds Losers then we will know its totally UNENFORCEABLE. No doubt some of the bottom feeders will buy a shed load of them for a pittance and start the threat merry go round again. Lets face it though if M&S and the HSBC with all their high powered lawyers cannot suceed then theres no hope for the pond life

[pandora]

Re: maharg v m&S

Well if it helps, DCAs who took up the mantle were .. CD UK followed by DLC - who both scuttled off once in possession of the facts ...

My last payment to M&S was well over 2 years ago - and I am quite confident that IF any legal action was initiated by M&S, that they would fail miserably and thereby set a precedent for everyone else !!!

So the question to ask them is (in your best husky voice) "...do you feel lucky punk ..... well do ya ??" (P quickly slides her Magnum 45 back in its holster ... and puts Dirty Harry in the DVD for a quick brush up on being mean and moody) !!

P :beagle:

[mystery1]

Re: maharg v m&S

Santander v Mayhew available via google. Not a precedent but persuasive.

M1

[ODC]

Re: maharg v m&S

I have a statement from th Leeds Losers in which they refer to the agreement dated in the late 80s. This is long before M&S issued their unsolicited Credit Cards. So thank you Mr Bartle for confirming you do not have a credit agreement