CCA and overdraft, Enforcement Notice, DN etc...........

[Chalkitup]

Re: CCA and overdraft, Enforcement Notice, DN etc...........

Thank you for replies.

Just looked into my filing cabinet and between 1999 and 2006 (when I entered CCCS DMP - that they ceased in FEB 2010 because I have too little cash each month) Nat West actually sent me letters every time they increased my Credit Zone limit.

Pandora ..... I have only received a termination letter under s76(1) and 98(1) of the CCA 1974 in Feb 2007 from Natwest.

Regarding the items Peter and Dad posted ...... Funnily enough I have been downloading that info during the day and have come up with an interesting point regarding my account.
As I said between 2006 - Feb 2010 I was in CCCS DMP and because NW were adding interest way above what I could afford to pay each month I went over the limit early 2007.
Not sure if that makes any difference as by that time they had sent the od termination letter and I was in DMP but the thing is NatWest sent an "advice of account charge" saying unarranged borrowing fee and rates in March 2007 but the next time they contacted me was Dec 08. The next time after that I was informed of my balance was by their DCA Triton in March 2010.

So I was not being informed very often of the annual rate of interest etc as said in the Determination 2(c). But does that mean I should be informed once --- or every three months?

At that point today I lost the will to live and seeked your advice!!!

Have I stumbled on something I can use against them ........ ?

They have had my SAR since 2007 but only sent account transaction lists but I am trying to get them to send everything else.

[pandora]

Re: CCA and overdraft, Enforcement Notice, DN etc...........

Hi Chalky ...

Not sure if this is already going the court route .. but as part of their case, the burden of proof is on them to prove the debt is lawful and has been administerd by them in compliance to any regs. So its THEY who must provide copies of the required letters to support their claim of part v exemption .... otherwise a full CCA is required .. as part v exemption has been forfeited.

Have you SAR'd them ... did any such letters appear?

Had you defaulted on your OD when the DN was issued?
Or had the bank just called it in?

I am presuming from what you have said that you only went into unauthorised terrority sometime later ... when you said they did send you the reqd letter, with all the reqd bits in it .... it is my opinon (and just my opinion) that this has to be sent each time you go into unauthorised waters.

So if you didn't bring it back within your approved limit, then IMHO and it is only my opinion mind, they don't need to keep sending you the unauthorised fee letter, as once you have been informed you are in that situation its upto you (if you wish) to check the continuing rate of interest via whatever means they publish it by. (v happy to be corrected if my thoughts are off key !!)

The addition of fees I am sure they have to write to you with details of the fees added to the debt, I would presume each month or each time they are added.

Now if you go back within your authorised limit, IMHO I would say the 3 month rule is re-set so to speak, until you exceed your auth limit again, when they have to send the apporpriate letter on the 3mth anniversary of you being in choppy waters again ..

Don't loose sight of your arguement though ...


You've told NW the OD element of the account is partially regulated by the CCA - whereby we know there are basic documents (i.e letter of facility etc) they needed to have supplied on initiation of the OD facility, on each change and on your request for a copy of the agreement for them to qualify for part v exemption.

• They have said it has part V exemption (correct) but only IF they have complied with OFT regs
• They also assert that there isn't a written agreement, never was one, and they never needed one .....and the OFT said this was all ok ... which is their downfall ..
• Because, yes there is, yes there was, yes they did, and no they didn't .... (as confirmed by DADs post) ..

This is what you bang the drum on ... and on .. and on .... don't tell them exactly what they should have sent you, just that it is regulated and yes there is an agreement that they are required to send. Hopefully they will soon realise that you know more then them, they've tripped themselves up big time saying no agreement exists .. and admit defeat to a better man .. ;-)

Again just my own observations and thoughts, you must take all views and decide the best for you ..

P :beagle:

[Chalkitup]

Re: CCA and overdraft, Enforcement Notice, DN etc...........

Thank you Pandora ..... I have to send them a letter this week anyway regarding still waiting after three years for them to respond properly to my SAR ......... I have been waiting to see what they send regarding the od determination.

I will add again about the od Determination.

I was in the DMP with CCCS when the od went over limit because bank kept adding interest every month which was four times what I was paying!!!! ...... they immediately sent the termination letter.

Thank you for all the help and I will start a thread on this account later this week.

[pandora]

Re: CCA and overdraft, Enforcement Notice, DN etc...........

Hi Chalky,

Well ... hopefully they will take another 3 yrs and then we are in the statue barred fields of gold .... !!

I'll pop in on your thread when you're up and running .. and we'll all give you as much help as needed, when you need it .. !!

P :beagle:

[nelliewops]

Re: CCA and overdraft, Enforcement Notice, DN etc...........

Hi folks!

Gosh, I'm so sorry I had forgotten all about this thread.............:tinysmile_aha_t:

Many thanks to all for their input - Peter, Dad, TomThumb, Pandora and Chalky......

There's a lot to take in here and I'll have to re-read this a few times before it all sinks in - but to answer TomThumb's question - the account dates from the mid 1990s I believe and at first I don't think there was an agreed o/d. After a few years I think one was offered or requested, but I'm not sure which. It was quite a low amount at first which was gradually increased over the years, again I'm not really sure if they offered to increase it or I asked as it was last increased about 6 years ago. Unfortunately all letters from back then have long since been shredded.

I defaulted on the account when our family circumstances changed drastically.

Shortly after putting in a claim for bank charges (which was about 12 months after the change in circs) LTSB sent the enforcement notice, closed the account and started farming it out to various DCAs demanding repayment of the full balance - all charges.

I SAR'd them last year and received no copies of DNs or facility letters for the setting up of the o/d.

There has still been no DN.

As I hadn't checked back on this thread since my first post, I sent a further letter to LTSB quoting the Coutts case and have yet to receive a reply - not sure now whether this was the wrong thing to do............:tinysmile_cry_t:

Anyway, thanks again for all your help with this and apologies again for not responding sooner.

Nellie x

P.S. Hope you get your issues sorted soon Chalky!

[Chalkitup]

Re: CCA and overdraft, Enforcement Notice, DN etc...........

Thank you nelliewops ..... I wish you luck in your battle.

Sorry I got a little carried away and hijacked your thread for a while today.

[nelliewops]

Re: CCA and overdraft, Enforcement Notice, DN etc...........

Thank you nelliewops ..... I wish you luck in your battle.

Sorry I got a little carried away and hijacked you thread for a while today.

Hi Chalky - no worries...........hijack away!

Nellie x

[Guest]

Re: CCA and overdraft, Enforcement Notice, DN etc...........

HI


Just to clarify, when i recieved the email above i rang the office and managed to get through to the person who wrote the letter.

I asked what he meant by various media, he sid "web pages or information brochures issued by the bank," i reminded him that that was not what was required according to the regulation and the determination. He then cut me off short and hung up.
You have to remember that what these people say is not allwayws correct. I have had many exchangers with the OFT and Lacours and other official bodies on a variety of subjects and they are by no means always proven to be correct.

In the end it is up to the man in the big chair.
Peter

[Chalkitup]

Re: CCA and overdraft, Enforcement Notice, DN etc...........

Thank you Peter.

I plan to now wait for NatWest to comply with my SAR and see exactly what they send me. I have given them enough rope in the last three years to hang themselves ..... I have sent many letters advising what I should receive ..... enough is enough ....... my story of this account is not on this site yet but soon will be but I do believe you contributed some advice on another thread I started some time back regarding this account "elsewhere" re wait to see what they send in a SAR.

As you rightly say "In the end it is up to the man in the big chair" ..... but so far after four years no creditor has started any court action ..... probably because of my circumstances.

[Guest]

Re: CCA and overdraft, Enforcement Notice, DN etc...........

Hi
Just as an added bit of information. The European directive on consumer credit will amend the CCA early next year. Part of those amendments will include. The requirement for creditors to contain details of unauthorised overdraft fees in the credit agreement and the issuing of agreements on authorised overdrafts.
Peter

[nelliewops]

Re: CCA and overdraft, Enforcement Notice, DN etc...........

Hi folks,

Just a further update on this -

Having re-sent the request for the overdraft facility letter (which I had done prior to this thread taking off!) LTSB have again replied with a response that doesn't address my request.

Having in their previous letter referred to the account number I quoted as a (albeit incorrect) credit card number, they have now decided that what I'm seeking sight of is a loan agreement

Their letter states -

'Thank you for contacting us about a personal loan.

Unfortunately the account number you have quoted is not one of our loans, therefore we cannot provide you with any details.

The loan you have quoted is an old branch legacy loan which we do not have any access to as they were set up before our department existed by branches.

Please contact your local Lloyds TSB branch in order to obtain the details you have requested.'

I'm not sure if they just employ total nincompoops or what as I've never even heard of a 'branch legacy loan' let alone had one!

Whilst I appreciate the comments posted above re: overdrafts/CCA, I don't get why LTSB cannot at least answer me by saying 'overdrafts are not covered by the CCA' or something along those lines instead of continually (whether deliberately or not) acting as if I have requested details of something quite different from an overdraft!

From reading threads it seems that most banks do at least recognise and acknowledge what the customer is requesting - even if they are not prepared/legally bound to divulge the required information. LTSB merely delight in the art of fobbing people off!

They haven't returned my £1.00 postal order either - cheeky whatnames!

At this stage I don't know whether to just give up on the idea of getting a straight answer out of Lloyds (which is no doubt what they want me to do) or keep at them.........any further suggestions please, guys and girls?

Many thanks,

Nellie x

[pandora]

Re: CCA and overdraft, Enforcement Notice, DN etc...........

Well if they say its a loan ... then by their own admission it must be regulated by the CCA74 .... so they have somewhat shot themselves in the foot good and proper...

If it were me, I would from now on refer to the debt as a loan - as that is what LTSB have told you it is ... which suits you perfectly fine as any court action will need a correctly executed CCA ..... or LTSB will have to admit to the court that they have given you inaccurate and misleading information, when you were questioning the regulation of the account ... a result either way I'd say .. !!!

P :beagle:

[nelliewops]

Re: CCA and overdraft, Enforcement Notice, DN etc...........

Well if they say its a loan ... then by their own admission it must be regulated by the CCA74 .... so they have somewhat shot themselves in the foot good and proper...

If it were me, I would from now on refer to the debt as a loan - as that is what LTSB have told you it is ... which suits you perfectly fine as any court action will need a correctly executed CCA ..... or LTSB will have to admit to the court that they have given you inaccurate and misleading information, when you were questioning the regulation of the account ... a result either way I'd say .. !!!

P :beagle:

Hi Pandora,

That's very true - I hadn't thought of it like that! Many thanks for pointing it out

Nellie x

[pompeyfaith]

Re: CCA and overdraft, Enforcement Notice, DN etc...........

And is why we all must also think outside of the box :beagle:

[pandora]

Re: CCA and overdraft, Enforcement Notice, DN etc...........

Just popped in to see how things were going ???

Seems all (thankfully) very quiet, so hoping that you won the day against LTSB !:tung:

P :beagle: