credit agreement

[Londoneye]

Re: credit agreement

Sorry, mis-read the agreement re the deferrment, still can't get it to add up though! Regarding "secret" commissions, I think a recent case was brought on this basis and a declaration of unenforceability was achieved although this may not have been purely based on the secret commissions. It could be enough to get the case re-opened though and give you a chance to argue the case again.

[pacluc27]

Re: credit agreement

I would like to take a look at the details of that case....trouble is, it doesn't become law if it was decided in the county court does it?
Wow that would open the flood gates..............
I think the basic problem is that a statement of broker commissions is not one of the prescribed essential elements of an agreement, if it were then I feel sure we would have a good case.
I have read on the net, that if it were found that secret commissions were paid, the principal can recind the agreement........have you seen this?

[LuggerBugs]

Re: credit agreement

I'm somewhat confused about all this. What this judge appears to be saying is, if a trader sells goods under the CCA, then he is liable for any mistakes that are made in the signing of the agreement. Alleged or not.

This cannot be right, regardless of the enforcability or otherwise of the agreement.

I think the key to this will be in whatever contract may have existed between you as a trader, and the finance company. Would you have a copy of that at all?

[pacluc27]

Re: credit agreement

Hi Lugger, thanks for joining the thread, ..........the debt landed in my lap, because the judge chose to believe that the woman had not signed the agreement on my licenced premises, which is a stipulation of the agreement. Despite the fact she had signed a seperate document to say she had. By allowing the signing to take place off licenced premises, I rendered the agreement unenforceable, so being responsible, I collected the bill! Nice eh?
I had 3 signatures from her, and a witness.....how does that work?

[LuggerBugs]

Re: credit agreement

Even if she WAS right, I still don't see that would make you liable. I'd be interested to be proved wrong, but surely the fact that the agreement was rendered unenforcable at all, should not burden YOU with the debt. I'd have thought it would be a hit the finance company would have to take.

I must confess to being puzzled about the whole reasoning of the judge. Unless, as I mentioned earlier, it was a stipulation of the contract between you and the finance company that you would be liable. And would there have been anything in your insurance policy that would have protected you against such a scenario?

Do you remember on what basis the judgement against you was made? I can't quite get my head around the why of all this. After all, there are LOADS of dodgy unsigned agreements out there. Some of them for vehicles. Doesn't make sense that the motor trader would be liable for bad agreements. They'd all be out of business in that case.

Confused dot com.

[pacluc27]

Re: credit agreement

Hello again Lugger...I cant get my head round it either, in fact the barrister acting for my oponent said to my barrister, he had no idea what he was doing there during the break for lunch.Meaning his case was a lost cause. In his summing up, the judge said that the lady had more reason to remember where she signed her document than I , and presumably my witness, did.
Although I had been sending my finance applications to London and Surrey finance brokers for years, I dont think any of my deals had ever gone through the Funding Corp before, and when they approved this one, they required some sort of dealer enrolement procedure. This consisted of a proforma brief description of my site, experience, and general personal details. and a dealer declaration....which incidentally, I never signed, in fact never even saw. London and Surrey completed and returned it to the F Corp on my behalf.
I must say, it has always puzzled me how a case to establish enforceability against a borrower, reverted to a case to land the bill on me, all in the same hearing.
I am no lawyer, but it seemed to me that there should have been a second case to establish liability was mine, if indeed, it was not hers.
I do have the case bundle still, which contains the dealer enrolement pages completed by the broker on my behalf, and sent to the F Corp.

[pacluc27]

Re: credit agreement

Hi Lugger, just been browsing through the case bundle......this case has got more holes in it than a collander......I seriously believe that any barrister worth owt would have walked it for me. There was just such a blatant lack of preparation, in fact negligence is probably the word.

[Farigaig]

Re: credit agreement

In 05 I was a motor dealer. In the december I arranged finance for a couple to buy a car which belonged to an acquaintance of mine, and friend of theirs. The loan was 12k, and the lender was the Funding Corporation. The loan was arranged by a broker I used regularly, and they paid me a commission for the business. The woman of the couple had made only 3 or 4 payments, when they had a bust up, and parted. Neither wanted to pay for the car now, and it was reposessed and sold for only 7k at auction. When judgement was made against them, the guy made no defence, and disappeared. The woman, however, claimed she had not signed the agreement on my licenced premises, and consequently the funding Corp took me to court along with her, knowing one or other of us would pick up the bill. The only witness to the signing was the car owner, who being her friend, she assumed would not give evidence against her. However, he went to court as my witness and did testify that she had signed in my office.
Apart from signing the agreement, she also signed a seperate document stating that she knew and understood what she had signed, and had signed on the dealer's licenced premises. Thirdly, she signed a d/debit mandate for payments on the loan from her account.
In court, she claimed she had no idea she was involved in a credit agreement, because the documents had been hidden from her when she signed, and she had no intention of being part of any agreement. Incidentally, her partner had applied on his own initially and was declined, which is why she then joined the application and put her name to it. This woman was no fool, she was/is the director of her own ltd co. dealing with contracts and agreements regularly.
Despite her lack of any evidence/witness whatsoever, the judge decided in her favour, and I subsequently copped a 20k+ charge on my home and a legal bill of over 4k. Despite the outrageous decision, my solicitor said without an overlooked point of law, an appeal would most likely fail. The car owner was so appalled by my predicament, that he instructed/paid for an appeal, which was declined of course.
I closed my business in 08 and apart from some part time work have been largely unemployed and broke. I do not get any benefits. This nightmare has ruined our lives. We dont have much, and now there is a charge on our equity increasing at an unrealistic interest rate. The stress this has put on my family has been very damaging indeed.
Now that many unenforceable agreements are being exposed, I wondered if the agreement that has been enforced effectively against me could be unenforceable, and would this give me the loophole I desperately need to escape this nightmare and put our lives back together.
We need a knowledgeable and tenacious representative, who can fight our corner.....trouble is, we are broke.
Anyone else out there suffering something similar?

Hi,
My name on here is Farigaig, I just joined, I see your situation my friend, I am one hell of a fighter against these things, I do not hold a great experience of the Credit laws, but enough. The new conditions on illegal loans should assist you.
I too have had hassles, where the stress broke up my marriage in the end,
you can email me onthat is if this site allows my address to go through .

Kind regards
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
Hi,
My name on here is Farigaig, I just joined, I see your situation my friend, I am one hell of a fighter against these things, I do not hold a great experience of the Credit laws, but enough.
I too have had hassles, where the stress broke up my marriage in the end,
you can email me on

[Londoneye]

Re: credit agreement

Pacluc, details of case referred to here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8282264.stm County court verdicts do not become law, but they do define it, by setting precedents. The secret commission thing is such a grey area, mainly because it is so difficult to prove. Having the agreement rescinded would work for you, whether a judge would do this or not, I couldn't say, but I really think you need to find a way to re-open the case, so many aspects of it just seem wrong.

[pacluc27]

Re: credit agreement

Hello Londoneye, yes I am sure the case could be pulled apart easily by someone in the know....sadly it costs cash to do anything at all, and I dont have any any more! It is just so frustrating to be in this position........I have done nothing wrong, but have spent thousands defending myself, and have a 25k charge on my home for my bother.
Justice is for the wealthy.

[Luminol]

Re: credit agreement

Not sure if this helps you pacluc27:

'Legal aid provision is divided in to civil legal aid and criminal legal aid.

Each has its own financial eligibility criteria. Both may apply a legal merit test. On the 6th of April 2009, the financial eligibility criteria for civil legal aid was changed. The monthly disposable income limit is now £733, up by £35 from £698 and the capital threshold is £8000. There is a different financial eligibility criteria for criminal legal aid in the Magistrates Court. For more detailed information refer to the Legal Services Commission website here:

www.legalservices.gov.uk

[Londoneye]

Re: credit agreement

Pacluc, get in touch with the court and let them know you would like leave to appeal because there is fresh evidence to consider, they should send you a form, the cost is @£120.00 but there should be a leaflet attached which explains certain circumstances under which the fee can be waived, maybe you would qualify? There is also the possibility of receiving legal aid, the court can advise you of this as well. Don't just put your head down and wonder what might have been, justice isn't only for the wealthy, it's for the deserving. The first stage is to get leave to appeal, I think if you got that, either legal aid or a "no win no fee" could be the way forward.

[pacluc27]

Re: credit agreement

Hello to Londoneye, Farigaig, and Lugger......thankyou to all of you for showing an interest in my dilemma. Sadly it seems that I have no chance of another appeal unless I can discover an overlooked point of law, which is why I was hopeful of finding an error in the finance agreement. The hidden commissions issue doesnt seem to be law, at least not law enough to get the whole issue squashed. There does appear to be a slight error in the addition, amounting to £10, but is this likely to be sufficient to make it unenforceable? I think I read somewhere that any error is unacceptable, but I dont remember where, as I have read so much.
I feel sure there has to be something, but how do I find it?
Thinking caps on !!!

[postggj]

Re: credit agreement

ime not butting my nose in being a new member but tell me more on this commission aspect

you must have received confirmation document and fee from the funding co. do you still have it

the agreement will have been ruled unenforceable if the people who signed it took it to court.

come to think of it , thats your defence

any commission payment you received would have been worked back into the agreement by the finance co.

all commission payments need to be declared on the agreement.

people saying county court cases dont set a precedent are correct but this matter has been delt in the high court.

any commission payment not declared to the borrower renders the agreement unenforceable

GOOGLE

WILSON V HURSTANGER

[pacluc27]

Re: credit agreement

Hi Keithposty. thanks for your input. I have read the case to which you refer, and although I cant recall it just now, I know it was different to my circumstances, and from memory didnt it result in the amount of the commissions being repaid to the borrower?
This was never my loan, I just arranged it...so I am not looking for anything other than to get the agreement declared unenforceable, and get the charge removed from my home.
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
Luggerbugs touched on the issue, earlier in the thread, of the contract between myself and the lender...I do have a document which was presented in court and forms part of the case bundle, but this document was not signed by me, and in fact I had never seen it until the case bundle was assembled and presented to me. The broker had completed and signed it on my behalf....it makes me think, that if the woman who borrowed the money, can escape her contract with the lender having gone through the application process, and signed the finance agreement plus 2 supporting documents, then surely it cannot be shown there was a contract between me and the lender when I never even saw their contract, let alone signed it!