CCA's need some hand holding

**Amethyst** · 25th May 2009, 00:17:AM

Re: CCA's need some hand holding

Okay first of all - the 12+2 days period doesnt make the debt unenforceable, just unenforceable without a court order until they find the original agreement. they can come up with it at any time and enforce on the debts.

Second, I would carry on paying at least a nominal sum, so that things don't suddenly kick off get sent to other DCAs and end up having to defend in court etc....thinking ahead, you keep more control of things that way. If you have never missed a payment with these companies, and the debts are all still with the original creditors it seems a shame to mess up your credit rating....yes if the agreements do turn out to be unenforceable or non existant you can fight to have markers removed from your credit file, but I would continue paying until you work out what the exact situation is.

Yes you can, legally, tell them it is in dispute (if you dispute it) and not pay if you prefer but it wont always stop further action, although it should.

Barclaycard - they havent actually sent a copy of your agreement then ? If you have a read in Curlys guide (linked at the top of the forum and ~~~ Consumer Credit Agreements - A Guide ~~~~ inc. Letters - Legal Beagles ) it will show you what to do next.

Egg - I would send the telephone harrassment letter (have a look in the guides for this) and that you will only communicate in writing.

MBNA are usually okay at sending agreements.

Actually on all of them its a good idea to have a good read of that guide ~~~ Consumer Credit Agreements - A Guide ~~~~ inc. Letters - Legal Beagles now

We can also ask for info under CPR 31 but leave that until you have chased the companies up on the CCA requests first.

Come back with ANY questions you have at all.

**scotsgirl** · 25th May 2009, 00:55:AM

Re: CCA's need some hand holding

wow amethyst, thanks for getting back to me so quickly. I didnt think anyone else was as much a night time owl as myself. :ranger:

how would you suggest is the best way to pay them? i.e. I obviously dont want to send them a cheque. Should I set up a standing order for a set amount? if so how much is nominal? and would that not mean that they would mark my file anyway with arrangement or something?

and how do I tell them that im sending this etc.?

when you say I can tell them it is in dispute, am I right in thinking that if they dont provide the cca it is automatically in dispute?

Thanks again

Scotsgirl

**frisp** · 25th May 2009, 07:19:AM

Re: CCA's need some hand holding

To add to what Ame said

Its a mistake to stop paying until they've gone over teh 12 + 30 days limit, its better to show willing.

I'd recommend filling out the income and expenditure spreadsheets and sending this with a letter asking for a their proposals for a reduced payments plan to all of your creditors.

In the letter ask them if they are agreeable to send you a suitable 'reference number, account number and sort code' as you will be paying by standing order

There are templates for both on this site, if you can't find them post again and someone will help.

hand holding a specialty on this site - PM me if you get stuck, and as the bold Capt Mainwaring often said 'Don't Panic'

**scotsgirl** · 27th May 2009, 00:57:AM

Re: CCA's need some hand holding

Hi Amethyst and Frisp

Thanks so much for helping me this far.

The harrassment has started already. Today I got a multitude of calls from an 0845 number. I didnt answer but a voicemail was left for me. The person's name wasnt clear but he said he was from RMA and left me a 01772 number and a reference number. Also the name they said they were leaving the message for wasnt mine, but it did have very small similarities.

I called it back to find out who they were and the guy wouldnt tell me who they were or what they were until I answered his security questions. I told him I wasnt willing to do that and he said just tell me your name and I will tell you who we are. So finally after a lot of back and forth I gave him my name and told him I was not the person they had said in the message.

He then asked me to give him my mother's maiden name, which of course I refused, and he said well if you give me the maiden name I will tell you what its about! a lot of back and forth went and as he and I were getting nowhere I said to him there is no point continuing this conversation.

At this point he told me no problem I will call you back tomorrow! I told him not to because I dont want calls from a company i know nothing about who I have no link with and who cant even tell me why they called my number and who cant even get the right name of the person they are calling.

Again he said ok, ill call you tomorrow!

I told him that if he continued to call me he would be breaking the law, and if he didnt know which laws they were he could use his spare time (instead of pestering people) to look them up on the net. He told me they were not breaking any laws and so I told him that they were, that any financial institutions or people acting on behalf of financial instituations were not permitted by law to continually harrass clients or alledged clients in the pursuit of financial issues.

I told him that he was not to call me again and anything his company or the company that he was acting on behalf of wanted to ask me they could put it in writing.

But, I dont know who they are. I know they are a company that act on behalf of major financial insitutions on important issues, or thats what ive been told by them.

But also, I only stopped my direct debits last week. 2 companies are not even due payment until the end of this week. Only 2 of them were due on the 18th. Surely they wouldnt start harrassing me for 8 days late in a payment?

Any advice?

Thanks

Scotsgirl

**Curlyben** · 27th May 2009, 07:15:AM

Re: CCA's need some hand holding

Honestly, get your number changed, cite telephone harassment..
RMA and their parent company NCO are complete pains in the bottom and totally ignore any disputes or requests not to call.
You'll start getting their wonderful postcards soon enough that makes it sound like they will be popping around to see you.

**Amethyst** · 27th May 2009, 07:42:AM

Re: CCA's need some hand holding

01772 843163 the number?

As Curly said these are complete bleeps. You don't have any debts, you havent, yet, missed any payments ?

have a look at this thread on MSE about them RMA Debt Collection Agency - Page 5 - MoneySavingExpert.com Forums

also threads on whocalls me - 08708707854 - who calls me?
and 08707591159 - who calls me?

might show you what you are dealing with.

If they don't stop hassling you on the telephone harrassment letter, then you can report to trading standards and the OFT (under debt collection guidelines oft 664)

**Curlyben** · 27th May 2009, 07:45:AM

Re: CCA's need some hand holding

To put it into context.
My dealings with RMA/NCO where concerning a B'card where the charges and outstanding balance where basically the same, about £20 in my favour.
RMA's complete disregard for law pushed me down the offensive path I now take with DCA's and their obnoxious tactics.
So, in a way, I have a lot to thank them for, as I wouldn't of done so much work with CCA and other regulations if it wasn't for them

**scotsgirl** · 27th May 2009, 13:29:PM

Re: CCA's need some hand holding

Hi Amethyst and Curlyben,

Touch wood, so far they havent called me back, but I did have a call this afternoon from EGG. I had thought it was RMA so I was ready to tell them the law on their persistent calls.

This guy from Egg asked for me by name, didnt ask for any security details and was actually (should I even admit!) rather nice!

He said he was calling because my Direct Debit had been cancelled and wanted to know if I wanted to discuss any issues with my financial situation. I said no, that I had already written to them before and I would prefer to keep my correspondence in writing. He checked his system and said there is nothing on file. He asked What have I written about I mentioned the CCA and said to him that as they had not responded then the account could be disputed and therefore would be unenforceable without the CCA.

He told me that he was going to email someone and that I should email and write again. He said it was not acceptable that no-one had responded because there were time limits that they had to adhere to! :-) wow does this guy work for EGG or for the CAB lol.

He said to me that in any case, I wasnt overdue on my payments yet anyway as it wasnt due til tomorrow, but because the DD had been cancelled they could levy a charge of £16 for cancelling the direct debit.

He said to me that if I had any financial difficulties that I should contact a DMP and that EGG would honour any agreement with them and freeze the interest. I confirmed with him you definately freeze the interest, oh yes he said, no problem. Just make sure its one of the reputable DMP co's that dont charge you and they will sort it out for you.

He gave me the account number, sort code and reference number should I wish to send any payment in the meantime :-) and he said that he would personally email the relevant departments who had not acknowledged the CCA, he also said to get a copy of the signature of who signed for it as proof lol.

Wow, dont worry though I didnt enter into any negotiations or anything silly like that, I was just gobsmacked that he was such a nice guy lol.

Spoke too soon................ while writing this got a call asking for Mrs Green - who isnt me (im guessing RMA calling) told them no-one of that name. they just put the phone down.

Anyway, thats an update so far.

Kindest regards

Scotsgirl.

**Amethyst** · 27th May 2009, 13:33:PM

Re: CCA's need some hand holding

Are you going to make the payment to EGG ? would be a shame to lose your credit rating and incur charges while you don't know where you stand with the CCA.

RMA/NCO like colours

their postcards all come from mr brown, mr green etc. lol.

**scotsgirl** · 27th May 2009, 14:25:PM

Re: CCA's need some hand holding

Really! lol

Well they are in for a shock because would you believe it, in my family we have surnames....

Gray, Black, White, and Brown lol and I have friends with the name Green lol

Let the Rainbow battle begin :-))

On Egg, yeah i think at least sending a partial payment would be the right thing for now.

Thanks Amethyst for keeping me going, last night i was close to snapping :-)

Scotsgirl

**frisp** · 28th May 2009, 19:08:PM

Re: CCA's need some hand holding

SG

As I said b4 you must really pay the ones that play ball a nominal affordable sum until you get all your creditors to accept a payment plan.

Have you done the income & expenditure stuff, if not do this ASAP as this is the first thing your creditors will ask for, having done it and sending it off will show a lot of goodwill to your creditors.

As for those other bu88ers who call and won't go away send them a letter including any of the following;

Company Name
Road
Town
City / County
Postcode

Re: Harassment by telephone

ACCOUNT NUMBER:

Dear Sirs

I am writing in relation to the quantity and frequency of telephone calls that I have received from your company, which I deem to be personally harassing.
I have verbally requested that these stop, but I am still receiving calls. (Delete if necessary)
I now require all further correspondence from your company to be made in writing only.
I am of the view that your continued harassment of me by telephone puts you in breach of Section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970, and the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.
If you continue to harass me by telephone, you will also be in breach of the Communications Act (2003) s.127 and I will report you to OFCOM, Trading Standards and The Office of Fair Trading, meaning that you will be liable to a substantial fine.
Be advised that any further telephone calls from your company will be recorded. (**Even if you don‘t yet have recording equipment!!**)

Yours faithfully,

Both the Office of Fair Trading and trade associations (run by the credit industry) have produced guidance on which activities may be considered harassment and should therefore be avoided by creditors.
The following (excerpt) is taken form the new Debt Collection Guidance for holders of consumer credit licences.
Creditors are warned by the OFT that under the Debt Collection Guidance, the following are "considered unfair";
PUTTING PRESSURE ON DEBTORS OR THIRD PARTIES IS CONSIDERED TO BE OPPRESSIVE,This includes · Contacting the debtor too frequently.

Pick from the following

The Office of Fair Trading Debt collection guidance document Final guidance on unfair business practices July 2003 (updated December 2006) which states that unfair business practices include:
a.Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment
b.Failing to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate, when a debt is queried or disputed, possibly resulting in debtors being wrongly pursued
c.Not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt.
d.Applying unreasonable charges, for example, charges not based on actual and necessary costs
e.Applying charges which are disproportionate to the main debt
f.Leaving out or presenting information in such a way that it creates a false or misleading impression or exploits debtors' lack of knowledge
g.Asking or instructing debtors to make contact on premium rate telephone numbers
h.Falsely implying or stating that action can or will be taken when it legally cannot
i.Putting pressure on debtors or third parties is considered to be oppressive.
j.Passing on debtor details to debt management companies without the debtors' informed prior consent
k.Misleading debtors into believing they are legally liable to pay collection charges when this is not the case

Harassment of Debtors -Administration of Justice Act 1970, s. 40

40.–(1) A person commits an offense if, with the object of coercing another person to pay money claimed from the other as a debt due under a contract, he–

(a) harasses the other with demands for payment which, in respect of their frequency or the manner or occasion of making any such demand, or of any threat or publicity by which any demand is accompanied, are calculated to subject him or members of his family or household to alarm, distress or humiliation;

(b) falsely represents, in relation to the money claimed, that criminal proceedings lie for failure to pay it;

(c) falsely represents himself to be authorised in some official capacity to claim or enforce payment; or

(d) utters a document falsely represented by him to have some official character or purporting to have some official character which he knows it has not.

(2) A person may be guilty of an offence by virtue of subsection (1)(a) above if he concerts with others in the taking of such action as is described in that paragraph, notwithstanding that his own course of conduct does not by itself amount to harassment.

This should do the trick, but, if it doesn't, keep your cool and report them to the Office of Fair Trading and your local trading standards office.

Remember, keep your cool at all times, don't be intimidated by a piece of plastic, if you don't like what you're listening to, put the phone down - and remember the most important thing of all is to put and get things in writing at all times.

A cunning plan - I think it was Curley who came up with this idea

Next time they call and ask for you just say hang on I'll go and get her, I'm putting you on hold then turn the radio/TV on and put the phone next to it, you can leave it then as they're paying for the call.

Chk back after a while (turn the radio off first) if they are still there then (apart from being supremely stupid) just say she's coming turn the radio back on put the phone down and just make some T, all the time they are paying for the call.

If all else fails, complain to OFCOM -http://www.ofcom.org.uk/complain/ and your local trading standards

**scotsgirl** · 6th June 2009, 22:30:PM

Re: CCA's need some hand holding

Hi All

Just an update....

Ok, Barclaycard sent me only terms and conditions. The 12 +2 passed and now they have sent me a letter saying I need to make payment, of course. They also sent me a monthly statement on which they have now levied a £12 payment default charge.

Egg, Sent me a copy of my alleged CCA. Having looked at the CCA's on some of the other forum pages mine looks pretty much the same. It appears from the comments made by others responding to the other people that it probably is unenforceable. But im not sure and i dont have a scanner to post it up. ill have to try and find someone to do it for me. Also they have sent pages and pages of screen prints, which they say are or were my terms and conditions again I will try and get some of the pages uploaded. One thing I read in the other forum pages is that because they also terminated me last year along with 159999 others its possible that they can be fought along the lines that they terminated the agreement therefore there is nothing more to pay.

In the CCA 1974 it states a bit about if the agreeement is terminated outstanding monies cannot be pursued. or something like that. Need to check it again. What do you think?
MBNA well theres another story. They of course put me onto RMA, and after I told RMA on the phone that their calls broke the law it appears they may well have listened as the next thing I got from them was a letter instructing me to contact them immediately. Of course I didnt. But because I got more letters from MBNA I called them. I know it was prob stupid but I told them that I was unhappy that RMA had been given the account, the first guy I spoke to (i have his name and location) said yeah, they do this, after 5 days of payment being due they put you onto RMA who will just continue to harrass you until you contact us! Then I got someone else who told me I needed to make an arrangement. I told him that I had sent a CCA request and that unless they could provide it then the debt at this time was unenforceable.

He said to me, only one person has ever used that arguement and won, I said to him well you obviously dont know that the british justice system works on precedents. He then said I had to send an income and expenditure to them and they would consider a payment scheme, but that they would not freeze any interest etc unless I went to a debt management company.

I hit rock bottom for a few days there and also have been a bit unwell so I let everything slide. I want to tackle them all individually and i think the best thing for now is to make a page on each of the CC in the forum and work my way through each one methodically.

I havent made any payments to any of them because I just didnt have the money. and, Im scared that paying them means that they will just take money that they are not entitled to have. I really dont know what to do for the best. I guess i need to start the next stage of letters.

feeling a bit disheartened right now.

Scotsgirl

**Curlyben** · 7th June 2009, 06:31:AM

Re: CCA's need some hand holding

Originally posted by scotsgirl View Post

Hi All

Just an update....

Ok, Barclaycard sent me only terms and conditions. The 12 +2 passed and now they have sent me a letter saying I need to make payment, of course. They also sent me a monthly statement on which they have now levied a £12 payment default charge. Oh dear well that doesn't comply now does it..

Egg, Sent me a copy of my alleged CCA. Having looked at the CCA's on some of the other forum pages mine looks pretty much the same. It appears from the comments made by others responding to the other people that it probably is unenforceable. But im not sure and i dont have a scanner to post it up. ill have to try and find someone to do it for me. Also they have sent pages and pages of screen prints, which they say are or were my terms and conditions again I will try and get some of the pages uploaded. One thing I read in the other forum pages is that because they also terminated me last year along with 159999 others its possible that they can be fought along the lines that they terminated the agreement therefore there is nothing more to pay. Under a terminated agreement any outstanding payments are still owed. A scan would be good to ensure they have pooched it as you feel.

In the CCA 1974 it states a bit about if the agreeement is terminated outstanding monies cannot be pursued. or something like that. Need to check it again. What do you think?
MBNA well theres another story. They of course put me onto RMA, and after I told RMA on the phone that their calls broke the law it appears they may well have listened as the next thing I got from them was a letter instructing me to contact them immediately. Of course I didnt. But because I got more letters from MBNA I called them. I know it was prob stupid but I told them that I was unhappy that RMA had been given the account, the first guy I spoke to (i have his name and location) said yeah, they do this, after 5 days of payment being due they put you onto RMA who will just continue to harrass you until you contact us! Then I got someone else who told me I needed to make an arrangement. I told him that I had sent a CCA request and that unless they could provide it then the debt at this time was unenforceable. Sounds about right from MBNA. These guys couldn't organise a "party" in a brewery..

He said to me, only one person has ever used that arguement and won, I said to him well you obviously dont know that the british justice system works on precedents. He then said I had to send an income and expenditure to them and they would consider a payment scheme, but that they would not freeze any interest etc unless I went to a debt management company.

I hit rock bottom for a few days there and also have been a bit unwell so I let everything slide. I want to tackle them all individually and i think the best thing for now is to make a page on each of the CC in the forum and work my way through each one methodically. Chin up it's all good, but as I mentioned earlier it might be an idea to change your number. If the creditors cannot be bothered to comply with your lawful request for information then that's their look out.

I havent made any payments to any of them because I just didnt have the money. and, Im scared that paying them means that they will just take money that they are not entitled to have. I really dont know what to do for the best. I guess i need to start the next stage of letters.

feeling a bit disheartened right now.

Scotsgirl

Scans would be excellent, then we can be sure about what they have sent.
Come on brighten up this is all a big game, ok so the stakes are high, but that's what makes it fun..

**frisp** · 7th June 2009, 06:53:AM

Re: CCA's need some hand holding

SG

1. Have you written to all your creditors asking for a payment plan, no, then find the template and just send it off to them all, it'll help in the long run.
2. Have you done the income and expenditure spreadsheet, if not you really need to do that.
3. As Curly says changing your telephone number is simple and you should do it. It means they can't bug you and everything must be in writing.
4. Have you received any default notices?
5. Don't forget to ask for account number, reference number and sort code from your creditors so that you can set up standing orders. If ay of them have done this already then start a SO for a pound.
6. There really is nothing to worry too much about at the minute, as Curly has said if they don't get back to you then its their look out.

Chin up and work through the things above once thats done it'll be upto them to take the next steps.

CCA's need some hand holding

CCA's need some hand holding

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