HSBC Loan - no CCA

[Kosenurm]

Hello,
I have held a loan with HSBC since 2011 for £10,000.00. I currently have around £6,500.00 of this still to repay.
I asked HSBC for a copy of my original Credit Agreement, which they said they could not provide as it was not filed in any relevant filing system. I wrote back with a SAR request, and they just wrote back to me to say that they could not provide me with a CCA for the same reason.

I have written back today to ask for a copy of the Agreement which they continue to enforce, meaning I have to pay.

Where do I stand? Surely they should provide me with something? It was only 2 years ago.

Thanks,
K.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: HSBC Loan - no CCA

Hi and welcome!

Can I ask, what are you trying to achieve? If you are looking to challenge enforceability, I'm afraid you won't get very far on that argument alone, since this loan was taken out in 2011. Normally unenforceability only works with accounts started before April 2007 due to a change in legislation that was enacted at that time.

There may be other arguments, was there any PPI on the loan?

A SAR request is very different from a CCA request, the SAR is a request under the Data Protection Act for all data held about you, and they have an obligation to respond within 40 days. The agreement should be a part of the SAR bundle but banks often argue that terms do not form part of a SAR because they are not personal data. You would send a SAR to get all your statements and other details regarding the history of your account.

Did you send a SAR letter with the £10 statutory maximum fee? Did you send an official s.77 request for a copy of your agreement with £1 fee? What did you get in response to your SAR?

'Enforcing' doesn't mean asking you to pay, it means taking you to court and obtaining judgment against you. Are you still making the agreed payments or have you defaulted?

[labman]

Re: HSBC Loan - no CCA

Hi and welcome!

Can I ask, what are you trying to achieve?

Key question from Miss Parrot there.

[Celestine]

Re: HSBC Loan - no CCA

They should definitely still supply a copy of any agreement though, so it is an interesting situation for such a young debt.

[labman]

Re: HSBC Loan - no CCA

They should definitely still supply a copy of any agreement though, so it is an interesting situation for such a young debt.

Indeed - any loan should have the relevant agreement, that's why it's interesting to see where the OP wants to take this as it is a first for me!

[Kosenurm]

Re: HSBC Loan - no CCA

Key question from Miss Parrot there.

I am still making the agreed payments on time. I just want to see what the original terms were really. You always hear so much about debts being written off by companies not keeping up with the paper trail, so, if I could get more, why not?

In response to my SAR, which I sent under the Data Protection Act with £10.00 fee, I got nothing apart from a letter in reply to say that they still could not find my application but that this is satisfied under the Information Comissioner's guidelines... I requested the SAR through a form I got from HSBC and gave it into the branch.

[Kosenurm]

Re: HSBC Loan - no CCA

Hi and welcome!

Can I ask, what are you trying to achieve? If you are looking to challenge enforceability, I'm afraid you won't get very far on that argument alone, since this loan was taken out in 2011. Normally unenforceability only works with accounts started before April 2007 due to a change in legislation that was enacted at that time.

There may be other arguments, was there any PPI on the loan?

A SAR request is very different from a CCA request, the SAR is a request under the Data Protection Act for all data held about you, and they have an obligation to respond within 40 days. The agreement should be a part of the SAR bundle but banks often argue that terms do not form part of a SAR because they are not personal data. You would send a SAR to get all your statements and other details regarding the history of your account.

Did you send a SAR letter with the £10 statutory maximum fee? Did you send an official s.77 request for a copy of your agreement with £1 fee? What did you get in response to your SAR?

'Enforcing' doesn't mean asking you to pay, it means taking you to court and obtaining judgment against you. Are you still making the agreed payments or have you defaulted?

No, there was no PPI. Only looking to see if my original agreement was satisfactory in terms of my affordability at the time. I know it was, but, just want the information on file.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: HSBC Loan - no CCA

I am still making the agreed payments on time. I just want to see what the original terms were really. You always hear so much about debts being written off by companies not keeping up with the paper trail, so, if I could get more, why not?

Actually, that's quite a common misconception. Debts are NOT written off due to lack of paperwork, they sometimes become unenforceable, which means the debt still exists, but cannot be recovered through the courts. This is more easily achieved with old accounts set up before April 2007, although I have to concur with Celestine above, they should still supply a copy of your agreement, and it's rather strange they shouldn't be able to do so with a loan from just 2 years ago! :ohwell: :confused2:

Do bear in mind that, regardless of paperwork, if you default on your contractual payments, you'll get a default recorded on your credit file and it will stay there for 6 years.

Don't take this the wrong way, I myself am no stranger to the 'paper trail' (a.k.a. unenforceability or CCA) route, I have £15k worth of debts I haven't paid since 2010, the thing is, they are all pre-2007. :thumb:

In response to my SAR, which I sent under the Data Protection Act with £10.00 fee, I got nothing apart from a letter in reply to say that they still could not find my application but that this is satisfied under the Information Comissioner's guidelines... I requested the SAR through a form I got from HSBC and gave it into the branch.

I very much doubt such a reply would satisfy the ICO's guidelines, a SAR should yield a copy of all your statements at the very least!

[labman]

Re: HSBC Loan - no CCA

I don't know if you have a copy of the letter you sent, or whether you can remember whether it included statements, but these should certainly have been included if you asked for them, or asked for everything. The following link provides more information:

http://ico.org.uk/for_the_public/personal_information

We need to have a think now about the lack of an agreement after only two years.

[mystery1]

Re: HSBC Loan - no CCA

Did you send a s77 request with £1 ?

M1

[Kosenurm]

Re: HSBC Loan - no CCA

Actually, that's quite a common misconception. Debts are NOT written off due to lack of paperwork, they sometimes become unenforceable, which means the debt still exists, but cannot be recovered through the courts. This is more easily achieved with old accounts set up before April 2007, although I have to concur with Celestine above, they should still supply a copy of your agreement, and it's rather strange they shouldn't be able to do so with a loan from just 2 years ago! :ohwell: :confused2:

Do bear in mind that, regardless of paperwork, if you default on your contractual payments, you'll get a default recorded on your credit file and it will stay there for 6 years.

Don't take this the wrong way, I myself am no stranger to the 'paper trail' (a.k.a. unenforceability or CCA) route, I have £15k worth of debts I haven't paid since 2010, the thing is, they are all pre-2007. :thumb:

I very much doubt such a reply would satisfy the ICO's guidelines, a SAR should yield a copy of all your statements at the very least!

Thank you for your reply. Much appreciated, especially as you have explained everything so clearly and politely.

Just a random question, if they cannot provide a signed CCA (or a reconstituted credit agreement), how could they prove I consented to the loan; in a similar vein to some upheld PPI complaints?

[labman]

Re: HSBC Loan - no CCA

Thank you for your reply. Much appreciated, especially as you have explained everything so clearly and politely.

Just a random question, if they cannot provide a signed CCA (or a reconstituted credit agreement), how could they prove I consented to the loan; in a similar vein to some upheld PPI complaints?

I think statements would be considered sufficient nowadays - if you hadn't consented to it, why would you be making payments?

I'm still trying to think of some angle on this though, as I'm sure there should be something you should be able to do.

[Kosenurm]

Re: HSBC Loan - no CCA

I'm still trying to think of some angle on this though, as I'm sure there should be something you should be able to do.

Thanks for your help. It's not as though they have provided me with a reconstituted credit agreement either (i.e. a copy of the thing I would have signed), so it's a bit odd.

[Kosenurm]

Re: HSBC Loan - no CCA

I think statements would be considered sufficient nowadays - if you hadn't consented to it, why would you be making payments?

I'm still trying to think of some angle on this though, as I'm sure there should be something you should be able to do.

Any joy?

[labman]

Re: HSBC Loan - no CCA

The only thing I've thought of so far is whether you might have any grounds for them losing your personal and highly sensitive data so quickly under the DPA. It's possible that a formal complaint would get you some compensation. Other than that, nothing better so far sorry!