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Libor rates - sfo investigation

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  • #16
    Re: Libor rates - sfo investigation

    It seems that the LIBOR fixing 'cartel' mostly held the rate at an artificially lower level, as Crowie has pointed out - presumably by falsely declaring to Reuters that they could borrow from other banks at a lower rate than they actually could in reality, and colluding with each other to do so. Fixing LIBOR at an artificially higher level also seems to have occurred, but on fewer occasions, it appears. So, if us mere peasants are expecting to find that we are entitled to refunds of interest on all our loans, I think we will be disappointed, as the lending rates were - for the most part - artificially low.

    It seems to be the savers and investors among us who suffered, because the returns on their investments were held artificially low. In particular, those who have private pension funds will have received lower dividends than they should have.

    And then there is the conundrum that many lenders - particularly sub-primes - did NOT reduce their rates in line with LIBOR reductions, and slowly increased them over time. Perhaps we may be able to reclaim the difference between the higher interest paid and the LIBOR-linked rate. But if we are to do this, then we will have to rely on a LIBOR that was fraudulently manipulated, as the basis for our claims. The lenders could argue that their rates were what they would have been if the LIBOR had been set properly and fairly.

    At the moment, it seems to my simple mind that - although the other 15 banks will probably all be found guilty of collusion, and the LIBOR scandal will become huge - the losers were investors and traders, and not humble borrowers. Perhaps the annullment of agreements, as mentioned by the OP, Sparkie & BlueBottle, is a possibility for borrowers to pursue - but I suspect that the powers-that-be will stop short of calling it a massive fraud for that very reason. If all LIBOR-linked agreements suddenly became unenforceable, then I assume we would then suffer the most awful financial implosion which will seal our (perhaps already inevitable) fate as a Third World country.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Libor rates - sfo investigation

      Originally posted by Bill-K View Post
      It seems that the LIBOR fixing 'cartel' mostly held the rate at an artificially lower level, as Crowie has pointed out - presumably by falsely declaring to Reuters that they could borrow from other banks at a lower rate than they actually could in reality, and colluding with each other to do so. Fixing LIBOR at an artificially higher level also seems to have occurred, but on fewer occasions, it appears. So, if us mere peasants are expecting to find that we are entitled to refunds of interest on all our loans, I think we will be disappointed, as the lending rates were - for the most part - artificially low.

      It seems to be the savers and investors among us who suffered, because the returns on their investments were held artificially low. In particular, those who have private pension funds will have received lower dividends than they should have.

      And then there is the conundrum that many lenders - particularly sub-primes - did NOT reduce their rates in line with LIBOR reductions, and slowly increased them over time. Perhaps we may be able to reclaim the difference between the higher interest paid and the LIBOR-linked rate. But if we are to do this, then we will have to rely on a LIBOR that was fraudulently manipulated, as the basis for our claims. The lenders could argue that their rates were what they would have been if the LIBOR had been set properly and fairly.

      At the moment, it seems to my simple mind that - although the other 15 banks will probably all be found guilty of collusion, and the LIBOR scandal will become huge - the losers were investors and traders, and not humble borrowers. Perhaps the annullment of agreements, as mentioned by the OP, Sparkie & BlueBottle, is a possibility for borrowers to pursue - but I suspect that the powers-that-be will stop short of calling it a massive fraud for that very reason. If all LIBOR-linked agreements suddenly became unenforceable, then I assume we would then suffer the most awful financial implosion which will seal our (perhaps already inevitable) fate as a Third World country.
      The reality is, Bill, that what the banks did is commit fraud on a massive scale. It is no good Posh Boy Cameron and Boy George Osborne trying to tell the electorate it isn't fraud, because no-one will believe them. You cannot protect those who committed the fraud by denying it. People aren't that gullible and Posh Boy and Boy George are quickly beginning to realise that. You are right when you say LIBOR-linked agreements would become unenforceable, because they would, due to the fraud aspect. What effect would this have on the economy? My slant on the matter is that it would force the politicians to take a long, hard look at what the financial sector have done, what effect it has had on the country, business and individuals and rebuild our monetary system and reform financial services law so that something like this can never happen again, because no-one will ever trust the banks again, no matter how many millions they pay PR companies to make them look good, because they will fool no-one.
      Life is a journey on which we all travel, sometimes together, but never alone.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Libor rates - sfo investigation

        I find it hard to share your optimism, BB. I've seen so much denial over the past years with these matters, and it seems that 'hard-a$$ing' and 'stonewalling' works if it is done with enough collective force. I would very much prefer to see the outcome you have described, and I did believe that to be possible once upon a fairy tale. But the evil that is now endemic seems to be in the DNA of these genetically-modified creatures, and I'm sure that a major element of the Eton & Harrow syllabuses (OK - syllabi) is the science of ripping off the public - but with style.

        They may fool no-one, but they will now be aware of that. It's no longer about fooling people, IMHO - it's about silencing those who are not fooled. They have the power to do that, whereas we - Joe Public - just have sheer weight of numbers. In the end, that boils down to brute force and ignorance versus high-level machination. The thin veneer of Civilization is being tested - and I fear for its integrity.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Libor rates - sfo investigation

          The banks and other financial institutions have gotten away with what they have because the politicians have been complicit in it. I have noticed that, since the LIBOR scandal blew up, Posh Boy has been looking very nervous. I feel he knows more about it than he lets on and he knows, himself, that his grip on power is about to be wrested from him. The Tories dirty dealings and government knowledge of what has been going on seems to becoming apparent with every day that passes with one revelation after another making the television news and tabloid press. The politicians will have a very hard job silencing people. The electorate have had enough of being lied to and being pushed around. Human nature dictates that people will only put up with so much before they turn on those who torment or do wrong against them. Vive la revolution.
          Life is a journey on which we all travel, sometimes together, but never alone.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Libor rates - sfo investigation

            Hate to disagree with you Bill but my personal experience is that the company I have the second charge with have grossly inflated what the actual libor rate really is. I have been charged at least 2.3% over the actual libor rate. They have claimed the libor rate is 3.3% not near 1 % actual for the past three + years. I have been doing my research on the webby recently!

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Libor rates - sfo investigation

              Originally posted by bluebottle View Post
              ...Vive la revolution.
              Agreed, compadré - let's hope it will be peacefully wrought !!!
              Originally posted by Ruby
              Hate to disagree with you Bill...
              That's what we're here for, Ruby !!! And the sub-primes seem to have managed to ignore the LIBOR when it suited them. I'm sure you have been ripped off, because the LIBOR should have been adhered to by those who subscribed to it. But - playing Devil's Advocate here - I think we have to be sure that our reasoning will stand up in court. Personally, I feel that the LIBOR rate - AS SET by our Fiduciaries - should have been adhered to. If that rate was subsequently found to have been erroneously or fraudulently manipulated, then that must surely be a separate issue.

              But - we have to be ready for their defence. There is big money riding on this. You dig ?

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Libor rates - sfo investigation

                Unfortunately there is a logic to what Bill-K says, if they were applying a rate fixed by others then that is not their error..............however...........
                I think Ruby is also saying that the rate she was charged was not the LIBOR rate it was 2.3% above it.

                Regardless of who rigged the LIBOR this rate is not the LIBOR therefore it is their own rigged rate unless Ruby's agreement was for LIBOR + 2.3%
                'I don't see why everyone depends on me. I'm not dependable. Even I don't
                depend on me, and I'm me.'

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Libor rates - sfo investigation

                  I agree with Magrew entirely - in principle. IMO, they should have adhered to LIBOR - as that was a term of the Credit Agreement (presumably).

                  BUT - I think we must be ready to anticipate and parry their arguments that the LIBOR rate was fraudulently fixed...etc.

                  We hold the higher ground in all respects, surely - but let us not become complacent. That is a weakness we must allow our adversary to enjoy.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Libor rates - sfo investigation

                    I have noticed, on BBC News Channel live links from Westminster, that politicians are getting more ready to put businessmen and civil servants on the spot and less tolerant of their ducking and diving. About bloody time! Pity they didn't do it years ago. Perhaps, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in now. It's okay saying that in hindsight, but at least the politicians have finally woken up and smelled the coffee.
                    Life is a journey on which we all travel, sometimes together, but never alone.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Libor rates - sfo investigation

                      Originally posted by bluebottle View Post
                      ...but at least the politicians have finally woken up and smelled the coffee.
                      I pray that you are right, BB. I have never - truly - wanted to be so wrong, before. Let it be so.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Libor rates - sfo investigation

                        Just to clarify things - I was told over the phone that the LIBOR rate was 3.3% that I was paying. In total I am paying 8.5% interest. Dispite the tumbling interest rates in the past three/four years mine has been unchanged since January 2009! I am still fuming but letter is now in the post. I have not minced my words to the company. I feel I maybe a bit 'early' in puting in my claim/complaint however I have nothing to lose. I am a like a dog with a bone with this and won't let it go until I get a satisfactory result. I want a refund/adjustment of the amount I owe for overpayments made in the past three/four years and charged with immediate effect the correct rate of interest for the rest of the loan.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Libor rates - sfo investigation

                          subscribe
                          Never give up, Never surrender.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Libor rates - sfo investigation

                            this is precisely why the government is twitchy - every conceivable financial
                            contract is technically invalid - even warren buffet says so - but here is where
                            you will see the judiciary backing govt due to mass claims leading to bank collapse
                            --- some brave judges are shouting out like the farepak case - hbos and gordon brown
                            are deep at the heart of this

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Libor rates - sfo investigation

                              it means that the banks have engaged as credible business partners when they
                              have been in breach of financial law - noone should be obliged to do business with
                              a corrupt institution - plus who told the public that what we know as mortgages were
                              given to merchant banks to play with as derivatives. That is a breach of Trades description
                              act - we were not sold what has come to be known as mortgages (a retail product) merchant banks
                              invent money but they were given access to REAL wealth of the people - savings/homes/pensions/
                              note loans are turned to charging orders on houses now.

                              real money was given to investment banks to play with - this was a deliberate action to disempower
                              the masses and put real money into the flase casino economy

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Libor rates - sfo investigation

                                enaid - look at where your mortgage comes from probably from the now 2
                                state owned banks - who were technically insolvent in 2007 and were given
                                61 billion by mervyn king without the public knowing. this was to cover up
                                their mess til they merged with lloyds and got pubic money on top THATS BAD

                                where did that money go? in unlawful unreality like stating you are more solvent
                                than you are - if YOU did that - you would go to prison. You get more for money
                                fraud than murder

                                ps ian fraser financial journalist is covering this thoroughly - worth following on
                                twitter @ian_fraser plus @moveyourmoney or google

                                this is BIG VERY BIG and noone should underestimate the power - an economy
                                based on a lie must flounder - big 4 and govt want to bury it - but thats why diamond
                                bob is always smiling he knows he has opened the door - mervyn king et al are complicit
                                in duping the whole country - since when was democracy about an elected govt deceiving
                                its people
                                Last edited by rudiruby; 18th July 2012, 18:25:PM.

                                Comment

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