Elderly customer added to joint mortgage in error.

[bluestar]

I am trying to sort out an elderly relatives finances as they are now too ill and I have power of attorney.

I have discovered the person is still on a mortgage but they have no recollection of it and their illness prevents me trying to ask too many questions.

The mortgage is a joint mortgage and the other party is not communicating with me. I have obtained a copy of the original mortgage application form from the bank and whilst they show the 2 persons as initial applicants, it is clearly written across the forms that one of them (the one I am acting for) was out of criteria and the application was to be considered on the other person only.

However both persons were put on the mortgage.

I have tried to take this up with the bank as the person in question has never paid anything at all towards the property or the mortgage, and to find out why they are on the mortgage but the bank cannot tell me. and it was done over 10 years ago. The matter is now in the hands of the ombudsman but I am wondering if anyone here can give me an opinion on this as I have tried to research it and pending the outcome from the ombudsman I just wanted to understand what has happened.

I am responsible for arranging care fees also and currently because of this the person has been deemed as having half the property even though they have never paid anything and the other account holder has paid everything.

I am nothing to do with either except hold poa for the ill person.

[labman]

Re: Elderly customer added to joint mortgage in error.

Is the other person related to the person for whom you have POA?

[charitynjw]

Re: Elderly customer added to joint mortgage in error.

Would it be worth doing a Land Registry search to see who is listed as a title holder?

http://www.landregistry.gov.uk/

[enaid]

Re: Elderly customer added to joint mortgage in error.

If the mortgage is still on going the Title Deeds will be with with the lender.

[CYNthesys]

Re: Elderly customer added to joint mortgage in error.

Bluestar

As you are their attorney, under I assume a Registered Enduring Power of Attorney or a LPA I think it may be an idea to write to the Court of Protection and ask for directions in this matter.
I've personally very little time for the Court of Protection, but as the welfare of the patient is supposed to take priority, its possible that they may be able to intervene.

[labman]

Re: Elderly customer added to joint mortgage in error.

Bluestar

As you are their attorney, under I assume a Registered Enduring Power of Attorney or a LPA I think it may be an idea to write to the Court of Protection and ask for directions in this matter.
I've personally very little time for the Court of Protection, but as the welfare of the patient is supposed to take priority, its possible that they may be able to intervene.

I'd await the ombudsman outcome first, then I think if this is unsatisfactory the above advice sounds good. I also admire Cynthesis for swallowing her pride and posting 'in their support' after her experience of them. Thankyou!

[leclerc]

Re: Elderly customer added to joint mortgage in error.

What age were they when the mortgage was taken out?
Were income inputted for them on the application and was that income a true reflection at the time of the income that was coming in for them?
How long was the mortgage for and, more importantly how old would they have been when the mortgage expired/ended?

[CYNthesys]

Re: Elderly customer added to joint mortgage in error.

I thought the Court of Protection may be a quicker option, as urgent applications, and or letters that are sent can be dealt with very speedily, whereas the Ombudsman, as we know can seemingly take forever.

[labman]

Re: Elderly customer added to joint mortgage in error.

You will know the answer to this better than me. Can you do the two simultaneously as the ombudsman is already underway?

[CYNthesys]

Re: Elderly customer added to joint mortgage in error.

I dont see why not. It may even speed up the Ombudsman if the court is prepared to offer a view on this situation.
I believe that the Ombudsman cant get involved only if a case has been decided on in litigation

[bluestar]

Re: Elderly customer added to joint mortgage in error.

Thanks for all the replies so far. Obviously I don't want to say too much here due to confidentiality reasons so some answers may be a bit vague but I'd like to understand how/why what has happened.


I will call the elderly person A and the other joint mortgage holder B

A was 69 years old at the time of the mortgage being taken out 10 years ago. B is a family member related to A and at the time was living with A in a council property which they became eligible to buy with a joint discount.

I am looking at a copy of the mortgage application form filled out by a mortgage consultant who's title was 'introducer'. This person is not from the lender with whom the mortgage is.

The mortgage term was 25 years.

The form was clearly filled out and contains both A and B's full details and other basic things.

B is applicant 1 on the form and A is applicant 2.

For A where it states 'total personal income' it states 'Nil - retired'. At the time (and since) A has only lived on a state pension, a small occupations pension from the deceased spouse, and disablity benefit.

B's is completed with their income.

The form is standard stuff until it gets to 'additional information' where it very clearly states 'this case is to be assessed on applicant 1 only as applicant 2 is out of criteria' and it further states 'already discussed with... and I think the next word could be underwriter? It says under...... but the rest of the word I cannot read.

I can understand that B should be on the title of the property due to their input via the council discount which I have already had legal advice for as being their equity in the property. Both persons are listed with the land registry as being title holders.

I cannot understand at all how B has been put on the mortgage when they clearly have been assessed as having nil income and therefore no means to pay it. How can this person therefore be jointly and severally liable should B default?

The F.O are looking into this but as A is now threatening to stop paying (due to a dispute over care fees being due and the outstanding amount now being put against the property) I have no idea how to deal with this should it happen.

(A has been paying their care fees from savings which have now run down to the local authority lower threshold so the local authority have taken over with this.)

Regarding the C.O.P. I have considered approaching them as to be honest I feel I want to step down as Attorney as the matter is just too complex for me and whilst I was happy to deal with day to day stuff a complex legal issue was not what I expected and has only come to light in the last few months and since I became Attorney. My limited knowledge of the COP is that they are a complete disaster to deal with and I do not want A to suffer as a result of it.

By suffer, I mean all the things A currently enjoys now because of my action as an Attorney - i.e their own telephone in their room, occasional purchases of clothing, treats and other small spends that they wish to have. Chiropody (because the NHS are so utterly useless at helping the elderly in nursing homes unless their are diabetic or have a life threatening condition). Hairdresser, manicure - nails don't stop growing because someone is in care - and I am not allowed to cut them due to health and safety reasons.

Everything I do, and have managed to arrange but which needs paying for is all fully accounted for but for which I do not currently have to ask permission of a court before doing so.

I will await the outcome of the F.O. but I would like to know if an error has been made in putting A on the mortgage and if not, how can someone be jointly and severally liable for a loan/mortgage for which it was recorded as them having nil income and not being eligible?

[CYNthesys]

Re: Elderly customer added to joint mortgage in error.

Hi Bluestar
Maybe the Ombudsman is the better of the 2 as regards your case

I came across a similar mortgage problem a couple of years ago, but I couldn't get anywhere with it.
Basically a friend of my sister was having a load of hassle with a joint secured loan she had taken out with her son. The lender was GE.Money.
As she was the sole owner of the charged property, I couldn't get my head round,and still cant understand how it could be a joint loan over a solely owned property

[labman]

Re: Elderly customer added to joint mortgage in error.

Can A not force sale of the property over which she is half owner in order to coninue the comforts you are managing to give her with your POA?

Would B have been eligible to buy the house in their own right?

[bluestar]

Re: Elderly customer added to joint mortgage in error.

The property has been up for sale for some time but is just not selling. The price has been dropped a couple of times but cannot be dropped any further due to the deprivation of assets rules. Without going into specifics, A is a quite severely disabled and already had the illness at the time the mortgage was taken out. The illness is degenerative and whilst not always predictable it is known to usually progress to needing full time care.

The property had various alterations to accomodate A's illness and disability - all done professionally but not paid for by either A or B and my limited knowledge of this is that it came under something to do with occupational health and enabling people to remain in their own homes for as long as possible.

Feedback from viewings has been that prospective buyers are not happy with having to 'undo' things - even though the cost of this has been reflected in the price.

B could have bought the property in their own right but does not want to.

[CYNthesys]

Re: Elderly customer added to joint mortgage in error.

Thinking about this logically - if it was a husband and wife who bought the house, and only the husband was working, then providing that the husband earned enough to satisfy the lending criteria it would be irrelevant that the wife had no income.