LTSB bank cards, provenance unknown!

[Amlodhi]

Good day - I apologise if I have posted this in the wrong area.

I have been appointed executor of my late mother’s estate and while carrying out routine checks, I have noticed irregular activity on her LTSB bank account.

My mother was incapable of managing her own financial affairs for her last 2-3 years so one of my siblings did so for her. My mother's debit card on her account, as far as I can see, was used to do all her shopping and pay all bills. I was surprised to discover from her bank statements that two cashpoint cards had also been issued on her account apparently to the same sibling who managed her affairs. They were used to draw a substantial amount of money from the account. I have approached LTSB who admitted that they could not trace these two cards on their system. They have referred the matter to either their investigation or fraud teams.

My question is: is it unusual (or, possibly, alarming) that a bank can apparently lose details of cards issued by them? I am worried that LTSB may try to cover this up in an attempt to protect their reputation. After all, it looks extremely suspicious that not one, but two cards, provenance unknown, have been used to draw a large amount of money, possibly fraudulently, from one of their accounts.

I’d be grateful for any advice on this matter, or explanations as to what may have happened.

[labman]

Re: LTSB bank cards, provenance unknown!

Can you approach the sibling concerned to see if there is an innocent explanation for the withdrawal of monies?

[Gorang]

Re: LTSB bank cards, provenance unknown!

One explaination could be that the last 2 cards are replacement cards if the previous ones have been lost

If a card is lost then that card is normally cancelled as soon as you phone the bank, and a new card is then issued and activated

if there has been 2 cards cancelled then there is a good chance that counter staff will only see one active card on their system and the lost/cancelled cards possibly don't show any more depending on how long ago they were lost/cancelled


another explanation could be that your sibling is also a card holder for your mothers account, which your mother would of needed to authorised with the bank, but the bank should have a record of that, and also see more than one active card on the system

Do you think the 2 cards that have been used are both still active

[Amlodhi]

Re: LTSB bank cards, provenance unknown!

Thanks, Labman and Gordon
No - the two cashpoint cards appeared in use on our mother's bank statements shortly after two of my siblings (who lived not far from my mother) were granted 3rd Party Access to my mother's account - the cards were definitely not replacements.
I am reasonably confident that they were issued as a direct consequence of the granting of access to my siblings, which means they should have had one card each. But my second sibling (not the one who used to manage our mother's affairs) has told me that he was only ever aware of the debit card I originally mentioned - he seemed to have no knowledge of any cashpoint card. Which begs the question: who was using the second card?
Whatever, the bank account was closed some months ago so, regardless of what happened to the cashpoint cards, they cannot be used any more.
I have still not had any explanation from the bank and can take no action until I do. When I do have the information, I will be able to confront my other sibling to ask what the money was used for. As stated earlier, my main worry is that Lloyds will try to cover what happened in order to protect their reputation. I suppose I will have to await their response and take it from there.:tinysmile_hmm_t2:

[Gorang]

Re: LTSB bank cards, provenance unknown!

The bank should be able to tell you what names were on that cards as any 3rd party cards for someones account has to have their own name on it, as well as the account holders name, as far as I am aware

[Amlodhi]

Re: LTSB bank cards, provenance unknown!

Gordon - thanks for this. I had been wondering if this was the case - now that you say it, it does make sense. I shall be visiting my local LTSB branch on Monday to see if they have got any further with tracing the provenance of the cards. If none, I shall instruct my solicitor to write to them officially asking for the information.
If there is further development inthe case, I will post it under Family Law, etc.

[Gorang]

Re: LTSB bank cards, provenance unknown!

Hi Amlodhi

Gordon - thanks for this. I had been wondering if this was the case - now that you say it, it does make sense. I shall be visiting my local LTSB branch on Monday to see if they have got any further with tracing the provenance of the cards. If none, I shall instruct my solicitor to write to them officially asking for the information.

If you don't want to pay the solicitors fee for requesting the info then there is one other thing that you could probally do yourself to get the info, if you are still unsure of how many cards there are, and when and where the money has been taken from your mothers account

If you have written conformation that you have been appointed the executor of the account

you could send the bank a SAR (subject access request) in your mothers name with you signing it as the executor

include with it

copies of written proof of being the executor
copies of photo ID of your self
copies of proof of address for your self
and also the £10 fee in the form of a postal order

do NOT send a CHEQUE for the fee (unless it is your mothers cheque and you are a authorised signatory to sign it) as 10 to 1 this will just complicate things as the cheque will have your name on it

And thinking about it I would personally take the SAR request to your mothers branch manager and explain why you want the info

With this request you should get back every bit of information that the bank holds about your mother, including all statements for at least the past 6 yrs

If you want to go down this route but are unsure of how to do it then please just shout back here again and we will guide you through it

[leclerc]

Re: LTSB bank cards, provenance unknown!

Thanks, Labman and GordonNo - the two cashpoint cards appeared in use on our mother's bank statements shortly after two of my siblings (who lived not far from my mother) were granted 3rd Party Access to my mother's account - the cards were definitely not replacements. I am reasonably confident that they were issued as a direct consequence of the granting of access to my siblings, which means they should have had one card each. But my second sibling (not the one who used to manage our mother's affairs) has told me that he was only ever aware of the debit card I originally mentioned - he seemed to have no knowledge of any cashpoint card. Which begs the question: who was using the second card? The bank should know who the cards were issued to and should be able to find out. My gut feeling is that the two siblings were issued with cards. If one is saying that they never received it then speak with both of them and tell them that you will have to inform the police about the one card not used because money was taken using the card(the mention of police, might help jog one or the other's memory ).Whatever, the bank account was closed some months ago so, regardless of what happened to the cashpoint cards, they cannot be used any more.I have still not had any explanation from the bank and can take no action until I do. When I do have the information, I will be able to confront my other sibling to ask what the money was used for. As stated earlier, my main worry is that Lloyds will try to cover what happened in order to protect their reputation. I suppose I will have to await their response and take it from there.:tinysmile_hmm_t2:

Once the death is registered 3rd Party access is effectively cancelled as are any cards on the account since a person who is deceased cannot give permission for anyone to use the account. I do not think that they have anything to "cover up" because I think it might be the case that either you spoke to someone who did not know or perhaps someone who did not look properly.

With regards to going into the branch on Monday, do Lloyds have a dedicated deceased department that would deal with queries from executors/solicitors(I know NatWest did which is where used to work but not sure if they do the same)?If you do speak to anyone in the branch ask to speak to the manager or someone senior who would deal with complaints because they will probably have more knowledge than simply someone who sells loans etc, to the public.

How long have their investigation team been looking at the case? Has there been any update on the case?

[CleverClogs]

Re: LTSB bank cards, provenance unknown!

The bank should know who the cards were issued to and should be able to find out. My gut feeling is that the two siblings were issued with cards. If one is saying that they never received it then speak with both of them and tell them that you will have to inform the police about the one card not used because money was taken using the card(the mention of police, might help jog one or the other's memory

Failing which, a pair of Vice Grip pliers could be useful as an improvised thumbscrew.

[Amlodhi]

Re: LTSB bank cards, provenance unknown!

Thanks to all of you for your valuable opinions and advice - some extremely useful information here. I'm particularly grateful to Cleverclogs for his input - does he have any particular make of pliers in mind? Could be crucial.
I spoke today to my local Lloyds TSB branch manager who I asked two weeks ago to enquire about the cashpoint cards. He had still not received a response and undertook to harass them again. He has asked me to call on him again on Friday.
On another line of approach, the solicitor administering my mother's estate has now written to both siblings to ask them, in an innocent way, about the cards; they would have received the letters last Saturday or Monday, so no response yet. If/when they do respond, and when I have the bank's response, I'll decide when and how to confront them. I am not in any hurry; the letter will have sown the seeds of doubt, I'll now let time do its work until after the Festive Season.
I'll let you know how things work out.

[Gorang]

Re: LTSB bank cards, provenance unknown!

LOL yeah the pliers does sound good doesn't it lol

Thanks for the update and please keep us posted as I am now interested in WHY the manager can't see that extra cards on his computer as he should be privy to more info then the average teller

[leclerc]

Re: LTSB bank cards, provenance unknown!

I believe the CEO approach is better because the amount of hassle you can give them is fantastic and plus it does give a kick up the backside to deal with the issue. I appreciate the manager has taken two weeks(personally, I think that is not good enough to get a response).