£60 for a bounced DD?!

[Crispybacon]

Hi All

Now I am back in control of my finances (yey!) I am going back through my bank statements from Santander.

I haven't added up the total in charges I have paid over the years yet but have some questions:

I am thinking of making a complaint regards my bank charges. Has the recent court battle pretty much made this impossible to get bank charges refunded or would I still have a change with the FOS if I could prove that the charges applied to my account have caused me significant hardship?

As an example of this in one month alone I amounted £270 in charges for 4 unpaid direct debits

Santander charge £60 for bouncing a DD. Now they claim that it is actually two charges. The first is an 'Instant Overdraft Request Fee' which comes in at a whopping £35. The next is the 'Return Unpaid Item' fee which comes in at £25. So combined the charge comes to £60 for bouncing a DD. Can Santander really argue successfully that these are two seperate fees?!

I suspect that once I have gone through just the last 18 months statements then the charges are going to come to approx £2k!

Best

Crispy

[Caspar]

Re: £60 for a bounced DD?!

Good question and I don't know the answer. However I'm in the process of trying the same with bailiffs fees from 3 years ago now, like you, I feel back in control.

Good luck!

David

[Amethyst]

Re: £60 for a bounced DD?!

These quite recent charges crispy ? (the instant overdraft request fee sounds like it post 2007?)

You could have a chance with the FOS if the charges were applied while you were in a period of hardship and the bank were aware of this at the time.

Otherwise, not a hope in hell as things stand.

[Amethyst]

Re: £60 for a bounced DD?!

If you're interested its fun to update these with the new charges (if they have changed since July 2010) Scenario 5 seems to match your four bounced DD's lol.



Here's Abbey/Santanders scenario's (from July 2010)


Scenario ---------1-------------2---------3---------4----------5-------------6

Santander-------£5to£35--£60------£95-------£150------£150----- £150-----Total £610 to £640

for these

1. We refuse a payment from your account because there is not enough money in your account.

2. A payment from your account takes you into an unauthorised overdraft by less than £10.

3. A payment from your account takes you into an unauthorised overdraft and you make another payment from the account while you are overdrawn. You are overdrawn for two days in a row during the month.

4. A payment from your account takes you into an unauthorised overdraft, and you make nine more payments from the account while you are overdrawn. You are overdrawn for 10 days in a row during the month.

5. A payment from your account takes you into an unauthorised overdraft. You are overdrawn for one day. However, on three more occasions during the month, a payment takes you into an unauthorised overdraft. On each of these occasions you are overdrawn for three days.

6. A payment from your account takes you into an unauthorised overdraft. You are overdrawn for 21 days in a row during the month and you make 12 more payments from the account while you are overdrawn.




Read more at: Banks publish charging scenarios - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum

[The Debt Star]

Re: £60 for a bounced DD?!

Crispy, this issue is very much of concern to me also.
We have a car loan with Wanco Satan-der and each time a DD bounces they stick on £45. This despite the fact that they get paid irrespective because I then on-line the money to them if that happens.
Also what gruels is that the credit report gets trashed because they register 1 late payment etc and this has seen the score plummet from an A rating for the GF to a Poor Rating.
Also, Wanco Satanb4stards charged us £25 for moving the date the DD is collected!
We are thinking about complaining about this.

[Caspar]

Re: £60 for a bounced DD?!

Crispy, this issue is very much of concern to me also.
We have a car loan with Wanco Satan-der and each time a DD bounces they stick on £45. This despite the fact that they get paid irrespective because I then on-line the money to them if from an A rating for the GF to a Poor Rating.
Also, Wanco Satanb4stards charged us £25 for moving the date the DD is collected!
We are thinking about complaining about this.

As we were saying yesterday our two situations are very similar. I was in the same situation as you with DD's bouncing just before I was paid, but I amended the DD date to avoid the charges. Maybe worth considering?

Don't tell me - I'm a wazzock. Sorry didn't read the last bit lol!
David

[The Debt Star]

Re: £60 for a bounced DD?!

We have now for the Satan-der car loan, and they charged us £25 to do it!

[Amethyst]

Re: £60 for a bounced DD?!

Can you not pay by bill payment rather than DD ?

[Caspar]

Re: £60 for a bounced DD?!

I think he's in the same predicament I was. It's not that he can't afford to pay the DD, it's the fact he can't pay it on that day (presumably just before his next pay day), hence him moving the date and being charged £25 for doing so.

David
x

[Amethyst]

Re: £60 for a bounced DD?!

In that case, and they refuse to move the due date, you need to try get a month ahead of yourself so you are in fact paying 29 days early rather than 1 day late.

And ditch the DD.

[The Debt Star]

Re: £60 for a bounced DD?!

I agree that ditching the DD is the right thing. Either way, we gotta stop Satan-der from demolishing the credit report. Changing the DD date is one way but we were pished off about the £25 "fine" for doing it. They refused to let us set up an Standing Order.

[Crispybacon]

Re: £60 for a bounced DD?!

These quite recent charges crispy ? (the instant overdraft request fee sounds like it post 2007?)

You could have a chance with the FOS if the charges were applied while you were in a period of hardship and the bank were aware of this at the time.

Otherwise, not a hope in hell as things stand.

Hi Amethyst

Yes they're recent charges, at the moment I've only got through the last couple of years statements.

Santander were aware we were in serious hardship at the time. In two consecutive months alone they took approx £270 each month even though I called them to tell them their charges were making things worse.

The person I spoke to response was 'we are helping you by providing you with an overdraft already there is nothing more we can do.' I kid you not!

If theres no benefit with spending my energy going down the OFT route then I'll consider not doing it. I have enough things to be getting on with as it is!

All the best

Crispy
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------

Crispy, this issue is very much of concern to me also.
We have a car loan with Wanco Satan-der and each time a DD bounces they stick on £45. This despite the fact that they get paid irrespective because I then on-line the money to them if that happens.
Also what gruels is that the credit report gets trashed because they register 1 late payment etc and this has seen the score plummet from an A rating for the GF to a Poor Rating.
Also, Wanco Satanb4stards charged us £25 for moving the date the DD is collected!
We are thinking about complaining about this.

Thats outrageous, but unfortunately not surprising from my experience of them

Since Santander took over Abbey their customer service has plummeted to new lows.

Crispy

[supermac9]

Re: £60 for a bounced DD?!

I'm not sure what to make of Santander since they took over from Abbey, but i do think it sometimes depends who you speak to at their call centre. I have two recent experiences:
1. I called them a couple of months ago to discuss changing the date of a regular standing order - without even asking, they cancelled a number of fees (around £100 worth) that were due to come out of my account a week or so later (!)
2. More recent call asking them to cancel or reduce fees fell on deaf ears, and all they would do is temporarily increase my overdraft to allow for the fees - the overdraft was reduced back to it's correct level once I was paid. Thought it was worth asking.
Another point about paid or unpaid direct debits - I'm not sure how banks work, but I knew that a direct debit was due on a particular date, but because I could not get to a branch to pay money over the counter to cover all of it, I paid cash into my account through the ATM (around 7.30am on the same day as the DD) - it didn't help and it was bounced, although it didn't appear on my online statement/balance until after 4.30pm on that day for some reason (I had been checking for it throughout the day). More fees I'm afraid!

[leclerc]

Re: £60 for a bounced DD?!

I'm not sure what to make of Santander since they took over from Abbey, but i do think it sometimes depends who you speak to at their call centre. I have two recent experiences:
1. I called them a couple of months ago to discuss changing the date of a regular standing order - without even asking, they cancelled a number of fees (around £100 worth) that were due to come out of my account a week or so later (!)
2. More recent call asking them to cancel or reduce fees fell on deaf ears, and all they would do is temporarily increase my overdraft to allow for the fees - the overdraft was reduced back to it's correct level once I was paid. Thought it was worth asking.
Another point about paid or unpaid direct debits - I'm not sure how banks work, but I knew that a direct debit was due on a particular date, but because I could not get to a branch to pay money over the counter to cover all of it, I paid cash into my account through the ATM (around 7.30am on the same day as the DD) - it didn't help and it was bounced, although it didn't appear on my online statement/balance until after 4.30pm on that day for some reason (I had been checking for it throughout the day). More fees I'm afraid!

My gut feeling on the last point is that the cash deposits and anything that is posted through the ATM would not be processed by branch staff until the end of the day which may account for that issue. I know that some banks will allow same day paying in against items going out same day but you would always have to speak with someone to make sure that it would be paid.

[The Debt Star]

Re: £60 for a bounced DD?!

Satan-der have refused to reimburse the £45 a pop charges. Total £320 over 24 month period. They say their charges are FOS approved.

So I have now replied to Satan-der as follows.

Mr Plagueis
Complaints Handler
Santander Customer Finance
3 Princess Way
REDHILL
Surrey
RH1 1SR

Dear Mr Plagueis


Agreement Number: 1234456789

I write in connection with the above.

Your response was peremptory and you have not considered the merits of my complaint. It is my belief that the charges are disproportionate, excessive and unfair as they amount to a de-facto charge of £45.00 per late payment.

I request that you reconsider your decision not to reimburse me the charges applied to my account since its inception. You will therefore regard this as an escalated complaint.

While you have invited me to appeal to the Financial Ombudsman, you have done so without being fully aware of my personal financial circumstances and the effect that the bank’s charges have had. You also appear to be unaware of the Financial Services Authority (FSA) guidance and the Office for Unfair Trading (OFT) guidance on unfair charges. The OFT has published guidelines saying that £12.00 was the maximum they would expect but that NO charges are valid until the true administration costs are provided.

Please provide me with a full breakdown of the costs you have incurred as a result of my breaches, in order to prove to me that your penalties really do reflect your actual losses.

The OFT report of 2006 concluded that excessive charges are unfair to the consumer. The FSA agree and regard such charges as highly unfair in reference to the Unfair Terms in consumer Contracts Regulations (the Regulations). Therefore a charge of £45 is unlikely to be enforceable against consumers. Schedule 2 to the Regulations states that an unfair contract term specifically INCLUDES:


“consumers being subject to unfair penalties.”

This is a current regulation. With respect, it has nothing to do with whether you think the Financial Ombudsman (FOS) agrees that your £45 charges are fair because if this complaint escalates further I will report to the FSA, the OFT as well as the FOS.

Insofar as the effect of your charges upon me, I would state that they have caused me financial distress and hardship. I have little personal income and joint household income is barely enough to cover basic living expenses after the payment of essential bills and existing debts. Your bank taking over £320.00 on a two year period has put me into a position of further hardship.

Section 9 of The Lending Code states that a refund of charges could be agreed if the charges themselves are reducing my household income to a level where I am unable to pay essential outgoings as they become due. Often Santander’s charges have caused financial hardship.

I would also like to draw your attention to guidance issued by The Lending Standards Board:


“If, during the course of a customer’s account operation, a subscriber becomes aware via their existing systems that the customer may be heading towards financial difficulties, the subscriber should contact the customer to outline their approach to financial difficulties and to encourage the customer to contact the subscriber if the customer is worried about their position. Subscribers should also provide signposts to sources of free, independent money advice.”


Further, it is equally clear that I have been in financial difficulties and that these have been evident to you as a subscriber to the Lending Code, from one or more of the following events stipulated at paragraph 139 of the Lending Code:


“·Items repeatedly being returned unpaid due
· Failing to meet loan repayments or other commitments”


The charges incurred have made affording my essential living costs such as food, electricity and mortgagevery difficult.


I also take exception to your compulsory charge of £25.00 for changing the payment date of my direct debit so that I could try to make sure that your payments were collected without being returned by my bank, thereby reducing the financial hardshop this was causing.

Yours sincerely,


THE DEBT STAR