Abbey - Gross Misconduct - Till Sharing

[tjoker]

I have been dismissed as I used another member of staff's till and visa versa a few times.

he reason I had to do that is due to the fact that we were under pressure with customers complaining, lack of staff, and other work pressures

I have worked for Abbey 20+ years and don't think I have been treated and been heard at my hearing.



I'm going to appeal but not sure how to go about it.

Any suggestions welcomed

[natweststaffmember]

Re: Abbey - Gross Misconduct - Till Sharing

I have been dismissed as I used another member of staff's till and visa versa a few times.

he reason I had to do that is due to the fact that we were under pressure with customers complaining, lack of staff, and other work pressures

I have worked for Abbey 20+ years and don't think I have been treated and been heard at my hearing.



I'm going to appeal but not sure how to go about it.

Any suggestions welcomed

Ok, I am going to have to go out shortly but I am certainly expert in your situation as I was sacked for gross misconduct from RBS group though not for that reason so I know the disciplinary route of Financial Institutions pretty well.

First things first: Did you log off the computer and log in?
Was there a till difference?
Was the other person disciplined as well?

[Mochamoo]

Re: Abbey - Gross Misconduct - Till Sharing

What process did they go through with you before they dismissed you?

Have you spoken to ACAS? 08457 47 47 47

Acas state:
When is a dismissal fair? Dismissal is normally fair only if your employer can show that it is for one of the following reasons:

• a reason related to your conduct
• a reason related to your capability or qualifications for the job
• because you were redundant
• because a statutory duty or restriction prohibited the employment being continued
• some other substantial reason of a kind which justifies the dismissal

and that they acted reasonably in treating that reason as sufficient for dismissal.

Am I protected against unfair dismissal? Employees have the right not to be unfairly dismissed. In most circumstances you must have at least one year's continuous service before you can make a complaint to an employment tribunal. However, there is no length of service requirement in relation to 'automatically unfair grounds'. Also, the requirement is reduced to one month if you claim to have been dismissed on medical grounds as a consequence of certain health and safety requirements that should have led to suspension with pay rather than to dismissal.
A complaint of unfair dismissal must be received by an employment tribunal within three months of the effective date of termination of the employment (usually the date of leaving the job) unless the tribunal considers this was not reasonably practicable. Time limits may also be extended where statutory procedures apply - subject to certain conditions.
If both you and your employer agree, instead of going to an employment tribunal, the case may be heard by an arbitrator under the Acas Arbitration Scheme. If a tribunal establishes that a dismissal has taken place it is normally for your employer to show that it was for a fair reason and that they have, as a minimum, followed the statutory disciplinary procedures. In such cases the tribunal must then decide whether, in the circumstances, your employer acted reasonably in treating that reason as sufficient for dismissal.



To make an official complaint you must fill in ET 1 which you can get from job centers and the CAB it come with an unfair dismissal brochure but I can not remember its exact name.

[tjoker]

Re: Abbey - Gross Misconduct - Till Sharing

natweststaffmember,

Thanks for replying back.

Firstly let me set the ground straight.

I was the Service Control Manager (Assistant Branch Manage) of the branch I worked for. When I arrived at the branch last October, the branch was a high risk state , the previous management had not been able to control the service level.

My BM was mostly uninterested in the branch, mainly on the telephone in his office upstairs. Late December/Early Jan 09 hi was not even there as he was on Paternity leave.

Answering your three questions :

Did you log off the computer and log in? No, due to the amount of time our systems took and the lack of staff and complaining customers we did not.
I openly admitted this at my initial interview and my hearing

Was there a till difference? No there were no till differences during the times we shared tills.
The till sharring was to complete transactions, so that the other member of staff could have either thier lunch break on time or so that could have a convienance break.

Was the other person disciplined as well? From the three people who shared tills, myself as thier manager and one other member of staff were suspended. The other person was disaplined and she has now returned to her job.

I have been dismissed on the ground of not considering Risk and Control, considering my lenght of service with the firm (20+ years)

May I ask another question. Over the last few years I have been promoted to the SCM position, but at no time was I give an new job description? should I have?

[natweststaffmember]

Re: Abbey - Gross Misconduct - Till Sharing

natweststaffmember,

Thanks for replying back.

Firstly let me set the ground straight.

I was the Service Control Manager (Assistant Branch Manage) of the branch I worked for. When I arrived at the branch last October, the branch was a high risk state , the previous management had not been able to control the service level.
Is the branch measured in terms of customer questionnaires, till differences, complaints and staffing(that kind of thing)?
My BM was mostly uninterested in the branch, mainly on the telephone in his office upstairs. Late December/Early Jan 09 hi was not even there as he was on Paternity leave.

Answering your three questions :

Did you log off the computer and log in? No, due to the amount of time our systems took and the lack of staff and complaining customers we did not.
I openly admitted this at my initial interview and my hearing
were you the person in charge as BM was on paternity leave?
What happened to the other person since they are responsible for their password security?
Was there a till difference? No there were no till differences during the times we shared tills.
The till sharring was to complete transactions, so that the other member of staff could have either thier lunch break on time or so that could have a convienance break.
How did this come to light? I am very confused if there was no till differences that it would come to light.
Was the other person disciplined as well? From the three people who shared tills, myself as thier manager and one other member of staff were suspended. The other person was disaplined and she has now returned to her job.

I have been dismissed on the ground of not considering Risk and Control, considering my lenght of service with the firm (20+ years)
Did you seek or did you ask for union representation? What were the specifics of your disciplinary? In their disciplinary letter was it stated that dismissal was one of the possible outcomes? Had you had any previous written/verbal warnings?
May I ask another question. Over the last few years I have been promoted to the SCM position, but at no time was I give an new job description? should I have?

With regards to the SCM position, not necessarily be an issue.
From the brief outline above, part of me thinks they were right on gross misconduct, but and I do mean this, it does to me sound slightly harsh. The crime does not necessarily fit the punishment given. Have you received the notes of the disciplinary giving you 14 days to appeal the decision?

[Mochamoo]

Re: Abbey - Gross Misconduct - Till Sharing

I think Im invisible everyones ignoring me today... contact ACAS.

[natweststaffmember]

Re: Abbey - Gross Misconduct - Till Sharing

I think Im invisible everyones ignoring me today... contact ACAS.

Mocha I know more about bank disciplinary issues than any other things. Dismissal was not my first

HOWEVER, as mocha has said, please contact ACAS on monday morning as well

[WendyB]

Re: Abbey - Gross Misconduct - Till Sharing

Not sure about banks, but I work for Ladbrokes, and can say that not suspending till when leaving it is definitelya discipinary offence. I know one person who had a 52 week stage 1 for it.

[tjoker]

Re: Abbey - Gross Misconduct - Till Sharing

With regards to the SCM position, not necessarily be an issue.
From the brief outline above, part of me thinks they were right on gross misconduct, but and I do mean this, it does to me sound slightly harsh. The crime does not necessarily fit the punishment given. Have you received the notes of the disciplinary giving you 14 days to appeal the decision?

- The branch is messured as follows: complaints, service levels, targets and sales figures.

- Was I the person in charge in the absence of the BM ? I assumed I was in charge, I have never been told this.

- The other person was disaplined. But has returned to work. We NEVER exchanged Passwords. Just used each others tills.

- This came alight as we have mini audits in the branches. There had been four till differences within the branch, none of them were on the tills which were shared. From the four till differences, three of them were found. Before starting there, there have been many till differences in the history of the branch.


Yes Union representation was taken
- The disaplinary letter did state that one of the outcomes could be dismissal. No I have never had any verbal or written warning on anything in the 20+ years I had worked with Abbey.

In my dismissal letter I have been dissmissed as follows :

I used other persons tills on more than one occassion and knew that I should not be doing this, as this is a serious breach of procedures. Being the Manager in the branchI should have led by example and not allowed this pratice to happen and should not have put staff in a situation where they were too breaching procedures.

I said the reason for breaching precedures was due to the service adenda. Which Abbey recognise thtat this is something that is driven from a leadership team at no point has there been any communication from our leadership team asking us to priorities service to the deteriment of risk procedures as has happened.

I claimed I had advised my BM, but the BM has said he is unaware of this and there is no concrete evidence or examples of when I ave tried to make the manager aware.

Can we discuss this in a private mail converation?

[natweststaffmember]

Re: Abbey - Gross Misconduct - Till Sharing

-

In my dismissal letter I have been dissmissed as follows :

I used other persons tills on more than one occassion(was it more than once?) and knew that I should not be doing this, as this is a serious breach of procedures. Being the Manager in the branch(were you running the branch and as such were manager?) I should have led by example and not allowed this pratice to happen and should not have put staff in a situation where they were too breaching procedures.

I said the reason for breaching precedures was due to the service adenda. Which Abbey recognise thtat this is something that is driven from a leadership team at no point has there been any communication from our leadership team asking us to priorities service to the deteriment of risk procedures as has happened.

I claimed I had advised my BM, but the BM has said he is unaware of this and there is no concrete evidence or examples of when I ave tried to make the manager aware.

Can we discuss this in a private mail converation?

There is a chat room here if that helps? I have got other questions re union representation as well.

[tomterm8]

Re: Abbey - Gross Misconduct - Till Sharing

what position were you in the branch?

What training had you recieved?

Did you recieve any formal written or verbal warnings before the disciplinary action?


I hate to say it, but given your apparent seniority in the branch, I think it is a disciplinary matter. The question is, is it gross misconduct or merely misconduct? That hinges on whether you knew what you were doing was against company policy. You didn't admit that you knew it was against policy did you?

If you did admit it, I don't think you have a chance, because technically I would think yout actions might have constituted an offence under the Computer Misuse Act.

[tjoker]

Re: Abbey - Gross Misconduct - Till Sharing

I'm in the chat room now

[natweststaffmember]

Re: Abbey - Gross Misconduct - Till Sharing

I'm in the chat room now

Same here as well

[tjoker]

Re: Abbey - Gross Misconduct - Till Sharing

what position were you in the branch? SCM (Service Control Manager) = to Assistant Branch Manager

What training had you recieved? NONE

Did you recieve any formal written or verbal warnings before the disciplinary action? Nothing ever in the 20+ I worked for them.


I hate to say it, but given your apparent seniority in the branch, I think it is a disciplinary matter. The question is, is it gross misconduct or merely misconduct? That hinges on whether you knew what you were doing was against company policy. You didn't admit that you knew it was against policy did you? I came clear to them in my initial interview. I know I shouldn' have till shared, but working at Branch level, with customers complaining of large queues, no fully trained staff, and lack of support from management, I felt I had not choice.

If you did admit it, I don't think you have a chance, because technically I would think yout actions might have constituted an offence under the Computer Misuse Act.

- The branch is messured as follows: complaints, service levels, targets and sales figures.

- Was I the person in charge in the absence of the BM ? I assumed I was in charge, I have never been told this.

- The other person was disaplined. But has returned to work. We NEVER exchanged Passwords. Just used each others tills.

- This came alight as we have mini audits in the branches. There had been four till differences within the branch, none of them were on the tills which were shared. From the four till differences, three of them were found. Before starting there, there have been many till differences in the history of the branch.


Yes Union representation was taken
- The disaplinary letter did state that one of the outcomes could be dismissal. No I have never had any verbal or written warning on anything in the 20+ years I had worked with Abbey.

In my dismissal letter I have been dissmissed as follows :

I used other persons tills on more than one occassion and knew that I should not be doing this, as this is a serious breach of procedures. Being the Manager in the branchI should have led by example and not allowed this pratice to happen and should not have put staff in a situation where they were too breaching procedures.

I said the reason for breaching precedures was due to the service adenda. Which Abbey recognise thtat this is something that is driven

[tomterm8]

Re: Abbey - Gross Misconduct - Till Sharing

I'm sorry, given what you've said I don't think you have much of a chance. You were simply too honest in your hearing. If you'd said that you hadn't recieved any training on the till, that it was a regular occurence in the branches you've worked and you believed it was within company policy, I think you would have had a very strong case.

As it is, you've admitted to knowing that what you were doing was wrong, and the banks are looking for any excuse to fire at the moment. I doubt you'd win a complaint. I accept that you did what you did for good reasons, and you were honest. Unfortunatly, being a good person doesn't always pay.