County court Judgment and bank charge reclaiming - help needed!!

[Amethyst]

Re: County court Judgment and bank charge reclaiming - help needed!!

7 days before hearing.

[ruby15]

Re: County court Judgment and bank charge reclaiming - help needed!!

Oh thats brill I can relax a little now and stop pestering you. Thank you!!!!

xxx

[Tools]

Re: County court Judgment and bank charge reclaiming - help needed!!

OK Ruby apologies if you feel you have been neglected on this but we have racked our brains on this one for days and have just about hit a brick wall. So far you have already submitted N244's and Witness Statements that have been ignored and we don't feel that submitting any more would make much difference to the case and would yet again be overlooked.

There isn't much more you could add and it would incur you further costs.

The only thing left I can see is one last ditch attempt directly to the Judge by way of a letter. That being said, if anyone has other ideas or suggestions they would be most gratefully be welcomed.

I suggest a letter based on the following, amend it to suit, add bits etc where you feel necessary. Address it directly to the Judge and mark it for his urgent attention. I am not sure of the correct procedure as this is an unauthordox way of communicating your circumstances so you may have to send copies to the solicitors too or submit it formally but at least the Judge is more inclined to read it and direct you.

Enclose a copy of your letters disputing the charges and Natwests replies. Also your letter dated 6th December 2008 and their reply of 5th January 2009 along with your CPR18 letter asking for aditional info/documents.

Claim numbers xxxxxxxx and xxxxxxxx

Your Honour,

We write to you in the hope that you may consider the above cases and our pleas that follow.

We plead with respect that to reacquaint yourself with the above case numbers you will see that both claimants have now made separate applications for charging orders relating to the same debt. In your Order dated 13th December 2008 you indicated that both claims (for the same debt) be heard jointly and combined but as yet this has not been actioned.

As both claims are for the same debt owing to Natwest but have been issued to two seperate solicitors, Messrs Shoosmiths & Messrs Irwin Mitchell for collection, we feel that a duplication of the impending charging order would be extremely unfair and possibly result in the debt being recovered twice over, a total of £12000 as opposed to £6000 (alter accurately).

We enclose a copies of our letters to Natwest and their replies to our concerns raised, in which they admit that they have instructed two further separate claims for recovery on the same liabilty even after being granted a Liabilty Order to repay the debt at an acceptable rate of £25 per month. They have also accepted my complaint that the amount owing consists of disputed bank charges, a matter brought by the OFT v Abbey & otrs, currently subject to appeal with the House of Lords, rendering us unable to issue a counterclaim for disputed charges that make up this debt. Natwest and their solicitors refuse to cease collections activity in breach of the Ofice of Fair Trading Debt Collection Guidelines (OFT664) while the debt is disputed.

Natwest have also failed to respond to our request for documents and information relating to this debt that may be reliant on the validity of this debt.(Please see enclosed)

We would ask, with respect, that Your Honour combine both claims ensuring that only one application for a charging order be granted for the outstanding debt which currently stands at £6000 (alter to exact amount) and that the Court insist my request for documents and information be complied with allowing us to defend effectively. We also make pleas to the Court that a stay of proceedings be issued in order to reach settlement of the disputed amount with Natwest under the terms of the Financial Services Authority waiver conditions for dealing with disputes by consumers suffering fiancial difficulty. Mrs x recently lost my employment due to (add why if you think it may help) and Mr x is due to be hospitalised and unable to work for the next xx weeks, placing us in severe financial difficulty.

We ask that Your Honour is mindful we are acting as Litigants in Person and unfamiliar with Court Procedure, if you feel our pleas be submitted differently then we would appreciate your further instructions.

We thank Your Honour for taking the time to consider our pleas and enclosed documents.

Yours sincerely

Mr & Mrs xxxxxxx

You also need to get back in touch with Natwest regarding your hardship claim with a new IE sheet, Ame is currently transferring your figures onto a proper cfs sheet with trigger figures. You will need to go through it with them on the phone and pester them every day you can to get it sorted and yourselves an interim payment which will hopefully wipe the debt. Have a look at the hardship successes for guidance with that and start a separate hardship thread so we can all keep track of that there.

Most importantly, and I do understand you have a lot going off at home, you need to keep us informed and up to speed of any developments. It is much easier if we deal with things as they arise and have time to counter them.

Right, I keep headbutting the screen so good luck with it and if anyone has any other suggestions please post them ASAP so we can get Ruby sorted. If I have overlooked anything by all means correct me and feel free to add/remove anything.

:wacko:

[ruby15]

Re: County court Judgment and bank charge reclaiming - help needed!!

Right ok, so we are taking a different approach now then. I will get this letter sorted today.

What do you mean when you say it may need submitting formally?

Dont worry I promise to keep you informed of any developments.

I really cant thank you all enough for your help, you have all been brill!

Ruby xx

ps Tools do you ever go to bed??

[Amethyst]

Re: County court Judgment and bank charge reclaiming - help needed!!

yep different approach, £150 in application fees is a lot of money to shell out and not get back for the foreseeable.

and no he doesn't sleep, hence the bags under my eyes lol.

one small thing district judges aren't your honour they are addressed as sir, but doesn't hurt to shmooze a bit.

The thing which has really put us off the application and witness statement this time is the judge seriously did bugger all about the situation last time, he knew you had asked for the information but did nothing to order the solicitors or bank to disclose the information, and he hadn't even read your paper prior to the hearing.

If the court won't put it on hold this time, then if he complies with his own order and keeps the cases together, then you should only get one final charging order which can be removed as soon as you get your hardship claim money back from natwest.

Sorry honey for the delay, we've really been stumped by this one.

Will get your cfs sheet uploaded shortly.

[Amethyst]

Re: County court Judgment and bank charge reclaiming - help needed!!

Can you break down your income for me please Ruby

Monthly income after tax (MR) 1671.00

salary / benefits and how much is yours and your OH's.

[ruby15]

Re: County court Judgment and bank charge reclaiming - help needed!!

Just finished reading your last post Ame, I quite agree the last judge really did ignore what we had to say last time.

What does Tools mean by "submitting formally"?

I dont understand the following - "Natwest and their solicitors refuse to cease collections activity in breach of the Ofice of Fair Trading Debt Collection Guidelines (OFT664) while the debt is disputed." - sorry I am rather thick.

Hubbys salary is after tax £1671, not on any benefits and I am not working so thats it.

Ruby xx

[Amethyst]

Re: County court Judgment and bank charge reclaiming - help needed!!

Ta muchly. Will he get full pay when he goes into hosp ?

Re Tools comment about submitting formally, basically the judge may read your letter and then tell you to put it in a formal application notice, but if he does that then at least we know he'll ruddy well read it this time


The excessive expenditure which natwest reffered to I believe is the Travel Expenditure (car/petrol costs) the allowance is £177 and you are on £240 - but then you are well under on other sections (like £120 under on 'other expenditure') so basically I think its just brainless morons handling the CFS sheets. (they use same one we do).

We could fib and put £80 of petrol into other expenditure or something but I think its better to explain it to natwest (something like 'you may feel our exepnditure on travel is excessive its needed for hubby to get to work and we spend much less in other areas to compensate' to get them to look at the forms.)

Additionally although i have left the figures you have offered and are paying for creditors this should be less, or need to get it out your budget elsewhere -

proportional figures for repayment from what you can afford based on your budget should be - natwest £13.30 month, egg £12.20 month, Cahoot £9.20 month.

financial statement attached defecit of around £36 a month as things stand.

Also I can't get the CCJ ticks off grrr so will need to tippex them

[Amethyst]

Re: County court Judgment and bank charge reclaiming - help needed!!

Summary for PT & Curly

Ruby joined site having had two claims against her and her husband, entered admissions on both and having an installment order on one and a forthwith order on the other. Ruby had written to court to query forthwith order and received in return a notice of hearing for redetermination.


November - wrote to court to ask court to change redetermination hearing (shoosmiths) to strike out hearing - and why - court didnt receive letter - couldnt afford n244 and not eligible for remission so sent in witness statement explaining duplicate claims - Legal Beagles

Hearing held - judge redetermined forthwith order to installments £20 a month and permission to apply for charging order. (Shoosmiths)

Irwin mitchell apply for variation of judgment to allow for charge order to be applied for.

Sent part 18 request to Shoosmiths and Irwin Mitchell, N244 to court to put a stay on the Irwin Mitchell application until information received from shoosmiths, witness statement submitted. ( Legal Beagles )

Wrote to Natwest re two claims and hardship claim for charges

Hearing held - Legal Beagles - Order received - permission to apply for CO and to link claims

Letters sent to Natwest, shoosmiths and irwin mitchell asking them to sort it before applying for charging orders (including claim for charges - not entered in court)

Interim charge orders applied for, entered on land regsitry and two seperate hearings for final charge orders.

and thats where we are. Courts ignoring the fact that natwest is claiming twice for same cause of action Natwest ignoring charges claim and saying they are entitled to two charge orders and solicitors ignoring part 18s.

Natwest letter - attached

[pt2537]

Re: County court Judgment and bank charge reclaiming - help needed!!

Thanks, righty, we shall have to see about this

if there are two claims, for the same thing, and the 1974 CCA says clearly at s141(5) both parties shall be party to proceedings, then if the two claims are for the same thing against both defendants, one claim should have been struck out immediately as it was concurrent proceedings which is not allowed.infact id say CPR 3.4(2)b would give grounds for a strike out immediatley as it is an abuse of the process.

seems to me that, s141 makes it clear that the claim should have had a first and second defendant not seperate claims for the same item

(5) Except as may be provided by rules of court, all the parties to a regulated agreement, and any surety, shall be made parties to any proceedings relating to the agreement.

this seems to be the view taken in Halsburys laws of england too

289. Practice and procedure.

An action to recover possession of goods1 to which a regulated2 hire-purchase agreement3 relates must be commenced in the
court4 for the district in which the debtor5 resides or carries on business6 or resided or carried on business at the date when he
last made a payment under the agreement7. Subject to certain exceptions8 all the parties to a regulated agreement, and any surety9, must be made parties to any proceedings relating to the agreement10. Where in any action or matter relating to a
regulated agreement the debtor or any surety has not been served with the originating process, the court may, on the ex parte
application of the plaintiff made at or before the hearing of the action or matter, dispense with this requirement11. Where an
action or matter relating to a regulated agreement is brought by a person to whom a former creditor's rights and duties under
the agreement have passed by assignment or by operation of law, the requirement does not apply to the former creditor unless
the court so directs12.

this really is a mess and one that really i think needs more time than i have this evening, however, they cannot as is clear because the debts are regulated by the 1974 act, do what they have done.

im thinking possibly an unfair relationship or a set aside with a strike out on the two bad claims to leave us with one set of proceedings

leave it with me and i will have a look

[Amethyst]

Re: County court Judgment and bank charge reclaiming - help needed!!

Thank you so much PT, I really appreciate you looking in on this.

Ruby, don't worry, you can still send that letter off, have called in reinforcements because I really don't feel the court are listening. PT is very good and will have a much better legal view on what we can do to force things the way we want them.

You concentrate on hubby, try and pop in here in a couple days tho see any progress.

And anything you don't understand just ask, I'll try explain stuff as we go.

We really want to try to do our best for you on this and I can't help feel we've let you down by not getting these gits sorted out before now.

(((((((((((((((hug)))))))))))))) for you and hubby xxx

[ruby15]

Re: County court Judgment and bank charge reclaiming - help needed!!

Hi Everyone, just got back from hospital, hubby in operating theater as I speak! He is at a hospital over 30 miles away and I am going again later this afternoon so wont be on for long today.

Thanks to all who are looking into this for me, I really do appreciate all your help!!!!

Hubby will get full pay while he is off.

The high expenditure on car fuel is mainly because my hubby works over 30 miles away. We have 2 cars as when I am in work I usually need one for my job.

At the last hearing (my hubbys) I did feel that the judge was sympathetic but as we could not prove that the 2 claims were for the same debt his hands were tied(due to on the original claim form sent from the court (N1CPC???) for Irwin Mitchel there was no account numbers stated, yet on the Shoosmiths claim form for me it had - hope that makes sense.

I will check on here during the next hour or two then I will be off to the hospital again. Thank you once again, what fantastic people you are!!!
Ruby xxx

[enaid]

Re: County court Judgment and bank charge reclaiming - help needed!!

Hope all goes well for your OH Ruby, take care of yourself too.
You are getting some really fine help with this now, all will be fine I'm sure.
Enaid x

[ruby15]

Re: County court Judgment and bank charge reclaiming - help needed!!

Many thanks for your kind words Enaid!

[WendyB]

Re: County court Judgment and bank charge reclaiming - help needed!!

Hi Ruby, hope all goes well.

Just a thought, while you are not in work could you not SORN the second car and suspend the insurance? Might cut down on your expenses a bit.