Very confused - Bankrupt - trustee applying to reposess home - HELP

[meellis]

Re: Very confused - Bankrupt - trustee applying to reposess home - HELP

I will bow to your greater experience CC but the context I meant about them not wanting the home is that they are only after funds so if they can guarantee getting the funds without having to sell the home then they will take the funds not the home.

[Crazy council]

Re: Very confused - Bankrupt - trustee applying to reposess home - HELP

I will bow to your greater experience CC but the context I meant about them not wanting the home is that they are only after funds so if they can guarantee getting the funds without having to sell the home then they will take the funds not the home.

I just ment that with trustees not the OR, the rules changed for the better during the administration of my bankruptcy, The OR usually goes a long way to not sell the house now. But prior the changes, if you had asset, you got passed straight to the trustee, now, you get time with the OR

My experience with trustees and the OR was 2007-2013, the rules changes in 2010, but after the trustee got possession of my house, hence the massive fight. 2*high court, 14 local court appearances just to argue out terms and costs becuase of the changes in the law

am scratching my head abit with this posters postition, No payment plann in place form the OR but payments made to creditors, debts seemly resisted against the estate after administration.

[MissFM]

Re: Very confused - Bankrupt - trustee applying to reposess home - HELP

I will bow to your greater experience CC but the context I meant about them not wanting the home is that they are only after funds so if they can guarantee getting the funds without having to sell the home then they will take the funds not the home.

Hmmm.

That would make sense - except that there are SO MANY threads on here where homes are repossessed and subsequently undersold.

As with bailiff activity, there does seem to be huge scope for fraud on the part of the trustee or OR - you just need a mate that can buy the property cheaply and immediately and so forth.......

Apologies to the OP if this seems, on the face of it, to be off-thread but I do think it's relevant and it's my personal opinion that the OP is being scammed in some way - just not sure how :tinysmile_hmm_t2:

[Hopfarm]

Re: Very confused - Bankrupt - trustee applying to reposess home - HELP

Thank you so much for your help so far ,I will call the OR and trustee on Monday and update when I know .Think my frustration comes from doing as instructed by people in authority who know how this works and ending up with an original £7000 debt turning into a £35,000+ debt and the loss of my property .

[meellis]

Re: Very confused - Bankrupt - trustee applying to reposess home - HELP

My opinion only is that the Op was directed to debt firm because on the face of it there was very little debt against high asset's and some sort of rescue plan should have been put in place. The pay 75% of the debt sounds like a debt relief plan but I wonder whether the management firm actually got it agreed. In my limited experience people are fed this view that bankruptcy is all bad and you are going to lose everything, maybe to put them off of taking this course of action too lightly. Because of this view people just role over and die instead of fighting and all these companies milk it for what it is worth Don't get me wrong, B/R isn't a lifestyle choice but it is survivable and isn't always as dire as anticipated. Like I say they are just trying to get the money owed back from the estate and they will take the easiest and quickest way because they need to close the case and move onto the next one. In my case between 2010- discharged 2011 and completed 2012 they told me there was £22K equity in my property but when I argued how that would be divided up into costs and other interests they realised they wouldn't end up with much so excepted £2000 from my parents. The OP has far more equity which makes it harder which is why you have to do all you can to argue that realistically the settlement will be a lot lower and the equity in truth isn't that high, some people base their equity on high market prices as opposed to realistic quick sale prices. One of the problems I faced was the complete lack of communication between the insolvency service, the trustee and the receiver. The insolvency service received cash, cheques and accounts from me but didn't inform the trustee or receiver. Miss FM, you are correct that people have had their homes re-possessed and undersold due to this but where they undersold against high market prices or realistic quick sale prices. Did the people who had their homes re-possessed have no real strong argument against it because at the end of the day the receiver has to use all the assets they can to relinquish the debt, I know I was in a fortunate position some aren't.

[Crazy council]

Re: Very confused - Bankrupt - trustee applying to reposess home - HELP

Thank you so much for your help so far ,I will call the OR and trustee on Monday and update when I know .Think my frustration comes from doing as instructed by people in authority who know how this works and ending up with an original £7000 debt turning into a £35,000+ debt and the loss of my property .

Hi, firstly i total understand , i went through it as well, I felt the advise i was given both at the OR and the trustee, was to there benefit, lost my house but then fought back and got it back, i had massive asset,in my property

Once you post up them docs, everyone will be able to give you better advise, especial in relation to the individual debits and charges that make up the total amount.

I had to figght these you see, during the administration, the trustee refused to challenge loopy claims, so i did. I only just started doing it just before he took control of my property. Thats when i learnt how to fight these sorts of things properly.

I can see a small problem ahead, and its about the regulations as to what happens to your house after 3 years, specificaly the trustee can loose option to controll unless he takes possession ( on title, not evicting you ). There is an option for the judge to allow an extension of the trustees interest for a period. But you would have to have a very good reason.

Hence, find a fault in the trustees administration. You need to request a breakdown of his payments, ( SIP 8 and 9 ) if i remember correctly. Because his charges are over £ 10,000 you can ask for a partial breakdown, ( unless its now changed )

[Hopfarm]

Re: Very confused - Bankrupt - trustee applying to reposess home - HELP

Something odd here.

what was the total debit registered with the OR at the meeting.
What is the name of the trustee I explained to the official receiver that I was unsure of my total debt ( due to house fire and no paper trail ) she did not discuss figures , told me about summers nigh, not much else , did not take my current account bank card ( was told she would )

Did the OR offer to deal with it any othere way
No , she didn't offer any options


How much total have you paid off the debits registered with the OR or trustee.
£10779.14 plus ppi refund of approx £9500
Are your kids ( dependants ( under 16 )
Now 16,14,12
Do you have any idea of teh trustees fees so far.


I have been through your situation, but just before the rule change ( you now get 2.2 years with the OR ).

Need to understand the following

Amount outstanding on OR form am struggling to find this
Amount paid off that
charges imposed
Name of trustee or firm kevin welch rsm tenon

was the other claim on the OR claim, or afterwards ? Never received an or claim

How much equity in your property after morgaee approx £200,000
how much of that is your split

50%
Apologies for not replying sooner , I have not been well but have heard nothing from anyone since last posting .
I phoned my trustee but have heard nothing , I will post below statements and projected statements I received from my trustee in March 2013 .


Creditors who have proved their debts
capquest £1372.25 (£1372.25)
hm revenue and customs £2721.17 (£2721.17)
halifax portfolio £4591.39 (£4591.13)
lowell portfolio £5735.78 (£5735.78)

claims not received
Tesco bank £1463.00 (£1463.00)

total creditors £16,243.59 (£16243.59)

statutory interest@8% per annum for the period from 27th april2012 to (a) 26th August 2013 and (b)26th January 2014 £1730.26 (£2274.99)

other costs
insolvency services account quarterly charges £44.00 ( £88.00)
estimated petitioners creditors costs £1500 (£1500)
trustees time costs to date £519 (£519)
vat thereon £103 (£103)
trustees estimated future costs/closure costs £6500 (£10,000)
vat theiron £1300 (£2000)
trustees disbursements to date £0 (£0)
vat thereon £0(£0)
trustees estimated future disbursements £10000(£2000)
vat thereon £200 (£400)
legal fees and disbursements to date £0 (£0)
vat thereon £0 (£0))
estimated future legal fees and disbursements £1000 ( £8000)
vat thereon £200 ((£1600)
agents fees to date £159 (£150
vat thereon £30.00 (£30.00)
estimated future agents fee £150 (£5000)
vat thereon £30(£1000)
cheque fees £11(£11)
total costs £12737.80(£30,711.67)!
£ 32401.80 (£50,520.38)
less credit balance on insolvency services account £6065.27 ( £6065.27!)! £24,546.40 (£44,855.11)
secretary of state fee ( insolvency service )!£6755.25?(?£10321.49)
total amount required £31401.64 (?£55,176.80)

[DebtSanity]

Re: Very confused - Bankrupt - trustee applying to reposess home - HELP

Blimey! I don't know where to start with this and I may have to come back to it in the morning with a fresh mind.

Firstly I'm surprised the OR would actually refer you to an outside organisation. In 26 years I've not known that to happen. Indeed they are trained NOT to as I understand.

Now, having said that the reason for a referral elsewhere is clear enough. With the means to pay the debts of the bankruptcy (as they were known at the time), I'd assume the OR was thinking of you seeking advice with a view to a bankruptcy annulment. In other words by paying off the debts plus fees, costs charges and expenses of the bankruptcy, you could get an annulment. That means it would be like you were never bankrupt in the first place.

BUT...

That didn't happen and it's difficult to grasp what the advice you received was meant to achieve.

So you paid off the debts (that you knew about) but that would have been an incomplete exercise at best anyway because the costs of bankruptcy would remain outstanding.

There's some things not hanging together as they should.

Moving on...

The debt that appeared sometime later.

Please ask the Trustee for a copy of Lowell's proof of debt form together with any supporting documentation provided. You can then satisfy yourself it's a legitimate debt.

Okay, I know what you're thinking right now. That it's too late for all that and that you need to deal with these possession proceedings at this late stage.

And you're right. Okay, on that cliffhanger I'm off to eat my evening meal; I've been on this forum too long already!

I will return to this in the morning if that's okay.

Oh! before I go- I'm lokiing at that estimated final outcome statement of the Trustee. That throws up questions too.

I see there are other creditors' claims on there. Are they not the ones you paid off then? So you have more creditors anyway?

More tomorrow.

Regards

[DebtSanity]

Re: Very confused - Bankrupt - trustee applying to reposess home - HELP

Hi Hopfarn. Okay let's see if we can get any further along the line...

Your original post was made in August last year when you said you'd been advised that the trustee was commencing proceedings for possession and sale.. Advised by who? The Trustee him/herself?

Your last post just up above here says you haven't heard from the trustee and you are indicating you don't know where things are up to. Does that mean you've heard nothing from him since last August?

The uncertainty must be killing you and your spouse who of course has an interest in this too-and your family generally of course.

Your first post made reference to you being 2 years and 4 months down the line- I think you know that's when a Trustee re-evaluates properties in terms of up to date valuation, outstanding mortgage etc. That seems inappropriate generally in this case given that with so much equity even earlier on there is no point in the trustee waiting until towards the end of the bankruptcy to realise his interest.

Now we are no longer 2 years 4 months on but 2 years and 9 months on. He has just 3 months to realise his interest.

Has the Trustee been sending you copies of his annual report to creditors? if so what have they said in their report each year about your property?

You see there's so many questions aren't there?

So what do you do now?

I'd be wanting chapter and verse from the trustee as to where he's up to and what his intentions are. Having this uncertainty hanging over your head isn't good as I say. Waiting for the Sword of Damocles to fall upon you means you are waiting for what you see as an inevitability but without knowing when.

Having said that, it doesn't take a trustee 4-5 months to put together an application for possession and sale so it begs the question just what is he doing?

Not being in control of the situation yourself is never a good idea but we are a long way down the road now. I always see an open and good line of communication with your trustee as being essential. You do not appear to have had that.

Talking of control, I always tell clients to stay in control themselves where possible rather than wait to see what a trustee does. So if I'd been advising you earlier I would be suggesting that putting the property on the open market for sale yourselves would ensure an optimum sale price is achieved which maximises your spouse's half share equity. With the trustee wanting £50k from your half share equity of £75K, you'd walk away with a chunk of change yourself. Effectively you and your spouse would have £100k cash or thereabouts.

Of course, you may be thinking that if you just hold out now the 3 years will pass and then the property reverts back into your joint control with your spouse. That would be a matter for your own personal judgement and isn't a likely outcome.

I feel like I've rambled on here somewhat but we simply don't know enough to know what it's best to do at this late stage.

Take a look at the questions I've raised in this and my previous post and let me have your further thoughts.

[Hopfarm]

Re: Very confused - Bankrupt - trustee applying to reposess home - HELP

Hi Hopfarn. Okay let's see if we can get any further along the line...

Your original post was made in August last year when you said you'd been advised that the trustee was commencing proceedings for possession and sale.. Advised by who? The Trustee him/herself? No , a letter from a firm of solicitors that was sent signed for but just posted through the letterbox without a signature .

Your last post just up above here says you haven't heard from the trustee and you are indicating you don't know where things are up to. Does that mean you've heard nothing from him since last August? Way before that . Letter last August was from a solicitors , have heard absolutely nothing since.

The uncertainty must be killing you and your spouse who of course has an interest in this too-and your family generally of course. I am living the nightmare , holding down a full time job with 3 children still living at home , paying a mortgage for a house I am about to loose ..... And so much more , don't sleep much . Also need to add that the mortgage is in mine and an ex partners name ( we split up 10 years ago ). I live in the house with my husband and both our children . My ex partner has made no contribution to the mortgage for 10 years. And I have very little contact with him . The trustee has not yet requested any contact details for him.

Your first post made reference to you being 2 years and 4 months down the line- I think you know that's when a Trustee re-evaluates properties in terms of up to date valuation, outstanding mortgage etc. That seems inappropriate generally in this case given that with so much equity even earlier on there is no point in the trustee waiting until towards the end of the bankruptcy to realise his interest.

Now we are no longer 2 years 4 months on but 2 years and 9 months on. He has just 3 months to realise his interest.

Has the Trustee been sending you copies of his annual report to creditors? if so what have they said in their report each year about your property? Have had no correspondence from the trustee for about 2 years, never received an annual report

You see there's so many questions aren't there?

So what do you do now?

I'd be wanting chapter and verse from the trustee as to where he's up to and what his intentions are. Having this uncertainty hanging over your head isn't good as I say. Waiting for the Sword of Damocles to fall upon you means you are waiting for what you see as an inevitability but without knowing when.

Having said that, it doesn't take a trustee 4-5 months to put together an application for possession and sale so it begs the question just what is he doing?

Not being in control of the situation yourself is never a good idea but we are a long way down the road now. I always see an open and good line of communication with your trustee as being essential. You do not appear to have had that.

Talking of control, I always tell clients to stay in control themselves where possible rather than wait to see what a trustee does. So if I'd been advising you earlier I would be suggesting that putting the property on the open market for sale yourselves would ensure an optimum sale price is achieved which maximises your spouse's half share equity. With the trustee wanting £50k from your half share equity of £75K, you'd walk away with a chunk of change yourself. Effectively you and your spouse would have £100k cash or thereabouts.

Of course, you may be thinking that if you just hold out now the 3 years will pass and then the property reverts back into your joint control with your spouse. That would be a matter for your own personal judgement and isn't a likely outcome. Guess this is the $99 question . It's only 3 months and I am scared that if I start asking questions now then my case will come to the top of the pile . My ex spouse ( joint mortgage holder ) has been advised that the trustee will have to contact him before any orders on the property can be enforced ? I am not sure of his current address ?

I feel like I've rambled on here somewhat but we simply don't know enough to know what it's best to do at this late stage.

Take a look at the questions I've raised in this and my previous post and let me have your further thoughts.

thank you so much for your response I appreciate your input and advice.

[Hopfarm]

Re: Very confused - Bankrupt - trustee applying to reposess home - HELP

Anyone help ? Unashamedly boosting this post !!

[Hopfarm]

Re: Very confused - Bankrupt - trustee applying to reposess home - HELP

An update , received this letter today ,

Dear
our client
bankruptcy estate

We have been instructed to act on behalf of ******** of ******* who has been appointed as your trustee in bankruptcy.

Mr *** has instructed us to act on his behalf in connection with the sale of your property *************.

Mr ****** wrote to you on 28th February 2013 to request confirmation of your agreement to the sale of the property for the benefit of your creditors . You did not respond ( I never received this ).

in the circumstances we are instructed to make an application to the court for possesion and an order of sale for the property. we are also instructed to make an application to the court for an order to join Mr ****************(my ex partner)as a second respondent to the proceedings as he is joint owner of the property ( I am not sure of his whereabouts ).

legal proceedings will be commenced seven days after the date of this letter I.e after 10th February 2015.

This is a matter upon which you are entitled to receive independent legal advice (any recommendations ?).

Kindly acknowledge safe receipt of this letter in any event .

[Crazy council]

Re: Very confused - Bankrupt - trustee applying to reposess home - HELP

Hi.

Had a bit of a read but not a full read up.

Initially, possession does not necessarily mean you loose the property, your kids are still at school, it just secures it for the trustee for the future. ( this may have changed ).

The trustee has to either

take action on your property to secure the creditors intersts ( and will add costs )
or
Secure a charge to allow you to put it up for sale. ( least costs but you still have to be carfull with the trustee )

If you want to have any chance of keeping the house,

You need to make an offer of payment of some of the debts and costs that wil finish befroe your child leave full time education 4-6 years.

You need some advice on what to offer, ( and updated fees and cost from the trustees ) ( 16k over 4-6 years ) and the offer needs to include a promise from you that if the payent are not made you will allow it to e put up for sale when your kids leave full time education.

I would do this.

1 write a complaint to trustee / OR saying you consider they did not make any attemtt to allow you to pay this other than selling your house from the start . Fill it out properly with your details ( go into details )
2. Formally request a full breakdown of the costs from the trustee under the sections of the rules that i posted early in the thread ( you definitely need that )
3. Make them an offer ( get the details first )
4. Formally challenge the lowels claims ( as the other will tell you there not good at paperwork )
5. Do a Subject acsess request to the trustee

depending on the full details, i would be making an offer of arround 16k, over 4 to 6 years, with the debit being registered as a charge on your property with the agreement that it can be sold if the debts not paid within the agreed time

DO THIS NOW, your running out of time, everything by recorded delivery and email.

Dont expect the trustee to welcome this, but, its at least an offer that secures the debts ( but not all his charges ) for the estate, and that what you need to show the judge if you going to oppose the possesion hearing

Find fault in the debts claimed ( lowesl ect ).

[Captain Haddock]

Re: Very confused - Bankrupt - trustee applying to reposess home - HELP

Subbed, What a nightmare. I feel for you, Hopfarm. All the best.

[Hopfarm]

Re: Very confused - Bankrupt - trustee applying to reposess home - HELP

Thank you , I am living the nightmare , feeling so hard done buy , what started as a debt of less than £5000 is now a debt of £66,0000 and about to loose my home , I work , have never claimed a penny in state benefits and have battled hard throughout my life , just so unfair , why did I bother !