Cancelled PCN but being chased by Collect Services (bailiffs)

[beecee3]

Hi,

Last year, my husband drove my car inadvertently into a bus lane without realising - he then turned around within seconds and drove back out of it when he thought he might have crossed into a bus lane - it's one of those sudden bus lanes that you have no way to avoid but to drive into it (a money trap for the council basically). We both drove the car that day, however and we are both insured for it though it's rare that he drives it.

My husband is the registered keeper of the vehicle but it is my car - I paid for it. He later received two PCNs in his name as registered keeper, timed minutes apart from Reading Borough Council about the bus lane 'contravention'. But when I looked at the photo they had attached, it showed that newish tarmac had more or less obscured the bus lane white lines/signage, so it could not be seen clearly. Which is the main reason why my husband did not realise he'd driven into a bus lane initially (plus the road has changed status since he last drove it - used to be part of a one way system that cars could go down).

I therefore went online and appealed the PCNs, using the council appeal system on the basis of the obscured road markings and later received a letter from Reading Borough Council, agreeing that yes, they would cancel the PCN. They did not state their grounds for cancellation but clearly, they realised that the bus lane was not clearly marked. Feeling happy about my small victory, I filed their cancellation notice and forgot all about it.

Fast forward to today - my husband received a call on his mobile from a company called Collect Services. After asking how they had obtained his mobile number (through 'GB data check' apparently) and telling them to remove it from their files, as they did not have our permission to use it, further calls to it would be viewed as harassment etc. I then established that Collect Services is chasing an 'outstanding unpaid PCN from Reading Borough Council'. I told Collect Services (rude & mildly threatening staff member - let's call him Willy) that the PCN was cancelled & referred him to Reading Borough Council. After some persuasion on my part, he agreed to call Reading BC to check & sure enough, he was informed by Reading BC that yes, the PCN was indeed cancelled last year. BUT apparently, the second PCN was never cancelled, despite me quoting both PCN numbers in my appeal, which led to the cancellation.

My new friend Willy informed me that he had a warrant and that they would be coming to take my car (though he only has my old address on file currently). Apparently, this has all been to court without us knowing, as we moved from the old address last year. Apparently, bailiffs visited the old address but again, this was all without my knowledge - having received the letter of cancellation from Reading BC, I really thought this matter was dealt with months ago.

This second PCN was timed about two minutes after the first, as my husband had to turn round and come back, due to the road layout.

Question: can you be issued with two PCNs for the same 'offence' of bus lane contravention on the same section of road and within minutes of each other? Should a second PCN have ever been issued in the first place? It's obvious that my husband had to turn around, if you know this bit of road. Plus, if one PCN was cancelled, due to inadequate road markings/tarmac obscuring the lines then surely, the second PCN should be cancelled on the same basis, as its the exact same bit of road?

My issue is, this is some months ago/last year and the case has been processed/been to court without my knowledge (due to letters going to the old address) so I didn't get a chance to respond or appeal again. I honestly thought that my initial online appeal had been successful (due to a PCN being cancelled) and my issue is, I quoted BOTH PCN numbers on my online appeal form and I really thought I'd dealt with it.

I spoke to a lady at Reading BC today in the bus lanes section and she said, yes she could see that one PCN had been cancelled but apparently, their 'system' could not 'read' the second PCN number I quoted in my online appeal.. She said I should have appealed both PCNs separately and not both on one appeal form. It was obviously not clear in the instructions, or else I would have done that. Is it my fault/issue that Reading BC's system cannot read two PCN numbers? Why have I got to go through all this, when their system isn't fit for purpose?

The lady from RBC said my only option was to call Reading Citizens Advice on an 0845 number (I really object to being made to call expensive 0845 numbers) but to add insult to injury, I could not get through despite 6 or 7 calls, as the CAB is too busy to answer & suggested I call back. Which brings me to you, Legal Beagles.

I'm worried that some muppet bailiffs will now try to take my car (it's parked outside on the public highway as we have no drive/garage). I lost my job in December so I am officially unemployed. I hope to have some freelance/temp work soon but I will need my car to get to it - as a freelancer, I need a vehicle for my trade.

Plus, I checked the total PCN charge, now it's been through the court system and it stands at £97 apparently (it was originally £60, reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days - another council scam..). My vehicle is not new but it's worth quite a bit more than £97, so why/how can bailiffs take my car for a far lesser amount? I guess I should move it from outside my house, whilst this is all being resolved but I am upset/annoyed that I am being out through this trouble, stress and harassment over a PCN that was/should have been cancelled but hasn't due to the council's system failure.

Also, where do I stand in that the vehicle is mine, I own it but my husband is listed as the registered keeper and the PCNs are in his name. He was driving my car on the day (we think) but the photos do not show who was driving - only the poor bus lane markings, which are obscured. I always thought that it has to be proved who was driving and that they cannot chase two people (we're both insured for the car) for a PCN. Or am I getting confused with speeding fines.

What do I do next - please advise in layman's terms!

Thanks.

[ploddertom]

Re: Cancelled PCN but being chased by Collect Services (bailiffs)

As you moved then you should contact the Traffic Enforcement Centre and submit an Out of Time - ask them to email the forms and if you return them via the same medium before 4pm then any enforcement is put on hold. If granted it should roll the ticket back to its original price where you can go through similar procedure to have it revoked.

[bluebottle]

Re: Cancelled PCN but being chased by Collect Services (bailiffs)

This has maladministration and incompetence written all over it. I would be inclined to put some judicious pressure on RBC to suspend enforcement action, which they can do, whilst this is sorted out. If they refuse to do so, then they expose the Council to litigation.

Notwithstanding, they have breached your right to a fair hearing under Article 6 of the Rome Convention and, also, your right to enjoyment of your possessions without interference from a public authority under Article 1 of the First Protocol of the Rome Convention. You may know the Rome Convention better as the European Convention on Human Rights. Section 6, Human Rights Act 1998 makes it unlawful for any public authority (which includes a local authority and any commercial entity or person acting on its behalf, including a bailiff) to perform any act which is incompatible with your Convention rights.

At the moment, Collect have a document saying they can seize goods, but the fault lies with RBC. As stated above, I would be inclined to put pressure on RBC to suspend enforcement action whilst this is sorted out. Strictly speaking, the costs of sorting out RBC's blundering should be borne by RBC, not you.

[beecee3]

Re: Cancelled PCN but being chased by Collect Services (bailiffs)

Hi,

You kindly provided advice previously and I did as you suggested; applied to the Traffic Enforcement Centre to have this PCN 'wound back' to the original, we used a solicitor to witness our declaration, paid the fee etc. We re-appealed the second PCN on the basis that the road markings for the bus lane in question were covered/obscured by tarmac, that the first PCN issued at the same time (within second)s was cancelled by Reading Borough Council for this very reason and that I had appealed BOTH PCNS at the time of issue but only one was cancelled - despite me quoting BOTH PCN numbers on my appeal form. I'm told by RBC that they could only process ONE PCN appeal on their system; something I did not know, as a layperson.

But our re-appeal via the Traffic Enforcement Centre was rejected in May 2014 and we received a letter to say that collection would still go ahead - in that same envelope was a letter from our old friends, Collect Services, saying that they would now apply for a 'warrant' to pursue us again. We then moved house, as our landlord suddenly sold the property we were renting.

Now, some months after moving into the new property and hearing nothing more from Collect Services with regard to any 'warrant', a man apparently called yesterday and asked my children if their dad was in. They said he was at work, so the man put a letter in our letterbox on the gate entrance. It was from Collect Services.

The letter says:

FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH ENFORCEMENT NOTICE
UNPAID PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE

BALANCE: £382.64
PLUS SALES/DISPOAL FEE: £110.00
TOTAL DUE; 492.64

Having failed to respond to our previous calls and correspondence our Senior Removal Enforcement Agent has called today to recover the above mentioned sum. He will continue to re-attend your premises over the next 7 days between the hours of 6.00am and 9.00pm until he is able to 'Take Control Of Your Vehicle/Household or Business Goods' which may include making legal entry to your premises.

To avoid the Enforcement Agent re-attending telephone XXXXXXX immediately to arrange settlement.

NO FURTHER WARNINGS WILL BE GIVEN

Senior Removal Enforcement Agent: Mr Rxxxxx

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Our new (rented) house is on a private estate, down a private lane (not adopted by the council) and we have a gate to the drive/house that we lock usually with a padlock - can representatives of Collect Services enter our padlocked gate and come up to the house? The gate was shut when he came yesterday but he parked in the lane and opened the unpadlocked gate. Can we put up a sign on our property to reject callers like him? I am mainly alone at the property with my three young children, as my husband (who they are pursuing as his name was on the V5) works abroad 80% of the time. I am very stressed and feel threatened by the thought of strange men turning up here - it's put my blood pressure through the roof again and I am getting severe headaches.
2. I have checked & it seems that Collect Services is a debt collection agency, not a bailiff firm, I think - so does this affect their powers?
3. This talk of 'warrants' - we have never seen one in all the time we have been pestered by Collect Services - are such 'warrants' real or legal, do they have expiry dates and who grants them - a court/judge? Are they enforceable? Are we supposed to see the 'warrants' when they're issued?
4. I have looked up this 'Senior Enforcement Agent' by name and he is NOT a certified bailiff - someone of the same surname (his brother or father maybe?) is registered/currently certified though. I guess if I point this out to Collect Services, they will just send one the people that is certified?
5. Collect Services have issued various letters during the time they've pestered us; they contain threats which turn out to be 'illegal' - things like 'we can come & take your car in your absence' etc. I understand that Reading Borough Council is responsible for the actions of Collect Services on their behalf - can I ask for copies of all the letters issued by Collect Services to date? As I think I should take all of it to a legal representative. I can't really afford to take this legal but hope I can get a letter drafted by a legal person at fairly low cost.
6. We have since sold the vehicle that Collect Services have previously threatened to clamp/take/levy upon. We now have a rental car through my husband's company for his work and my car, which I use for my freelance work, is on finance - so can they touch/take/try to levy upon either car legally?
7. I tried to get RBC to suspend the action of Collect Services whilst we dealt with getting this PCN cancelled through the Traffic Enforcement centre, on the basis that the second PCN was cancelled. I was eventually put through the lady 'Enforcement Officer' at RBC, who refused point blank to cancel the PCN or suspend action. I did this by telephone and she did say, 'we will not cancel a PCN if you call by phone' - so I guess this was a hint for me to write instead. I plan to do this and use a solicitor/legal person to write, in the hope that it will carry some weight. I told this lady that this was causing me physical illness/distress, that in their own pics, the bus lane is obscured by tarmac, she could see that one PCN had been cancelled on this basis but she would not budge from the idea that their system can only process one PCN appeal at a time and just because I quoted BOTH PCN numbers in my original appeal, their system could not process both so one PCN is still enforceable. RBC have continuously refused to assist or suspend action - despite other people in Reading querying the legality of the bus lane concerned, which was made front page news of the Reading paper. Other people have complained (and had their PCNs cancelled) on the basis of incorrect signage, as this bus lane being also marked as a cycle lane etc. This is aside from the fact that bus lane markings were covered by tarmac at the time of our 2 PCNs being issued (one cancelled on this basis).
8. Can I ask RBC to provide copies of photographs of the alleged offence - their own photos show that tarmac has obscured the bus lane lines. I don't think I have a copy of the original PCN or photo now, as we have moved three times since and I think I threw away the letter/pics when RBC cancelled the PCN - thinking it was all dealt with.
9. If I take this legal, can I claim against RBC for all the calls, my time and the stress/distress that they have caused me by pursuing one PCN that they should have cancelled?
10. I have printed out one of your template letters regarding Collect Services fees - I have no idea why they're now charging £492.64 for what was originally a £60 PCN charge. I thought I would ask CS for a breakdown of fees, bearing in mind I have never met or seen a representative of Collect Services until yesterday, when a man came and left a letter in our letterbox (he was in a small, private car, not a marked van and he was on his own). I guess they're are charging for visits but probably to previous properties that we lived in. I have not chosen to share new addresses with them, as not sure I was obliged to.
11. The only reason they have found us now, is that recently got new mobile phone contracts which involved a credit search, so this must have alerted Collect Services to our new location. They have previously used my husband's mobile number to try and contact him (which they got from a social media website) but we stopped them calling that by reminding them that they had no permission to harass us by phone.

Sorry it's a long post but this has going on for some time now and it's complicated but I feel I should give all facts. Thanks for any assistance you can give.

[Apollo1966]

Re: Cancelled PCN but being chased by Collect Services (bailiffs)

I have not read all just original post. Yes you can be charged with two offences within minutes....... you state he turned around....... so committed two offences..... the fact that council cancelled first then by definition the other needs to be cancelled. until such date you may need to PLEASE the court. explain to them show council has made error and the court has.

Possible you could say that they wrote to wrong address and it is their error you were unaware.......... Be careful how you approach this as ignorance is not a deference in law but being able to get mail IS. If you were not at property they wrote to that is proof.........added with you made mail AWARE you moved