Does a bailiff need to be certificated for HMCTS distress warrant?

[bizzybob]

Re: Does a bailiff need to be certificated for HMCTS distress warrant?

Well according to the police sergeant anyone entering someone's home in itself is not a crime, uninvited ot not. He went on to say it is only a crime if the person causes damage doing so, civil remedy under trespass or if the intention was to cause damage, and did so inter alia Criminal Damage or intends to burgle !!!! Are they for real ????

Technically, yes the sergeant is correct, BUT, a burglar would be entering with intent to steal, so the mens rea, the criminal thought is present from the beginning so would be criminal, other visitors would be OK then so long as they have an implies right of access, like the postman. and they are not a class of person whose implied right has been removed, an agent of Snotcall, or TVL. but a WOIRA cannot cover a bailiff executing a warrant, or a police officer acting in execution of their duty.

[charitynjw]

Re: Does a bailiff need to be certificated for HMCTS distress warrant?

Technically, yes the sergeant is correct, BUT, a burglar would be entering with intent to steal, so the mens rea, the criminal thought is present from the beginning so would be criminal, other visitors would be OK then so long as they have an implies right of access, like the postman. and they are not a class of person whose implied right has been removed, an agent of Snotcall, or TVL. but a WOIRA cannot cover a bailiff executing a warrant, or a police officer acting in execution of their duty.

Did you know

A Woira is an insect repellant.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18977426

" Furthermore, the survey also indicated that most commonly known traditional insect/mosquito repellent plants were Woira*(1).........."

Not a lot of people know that!

[bizzybob]

Re: Does a bailiff need to be certificated for HMCTS distress warrant?

Did you know

A Woira is an insect repellant.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18977426

" Furthermore, the survey also indicated that most commonly known traditional insect/mosquito repellent plants were Woira*(1).........."

Not a lot of people know that!

Perhaps we should just tell a bailiff to Buzz Off then!

[Guest]

Re: Does a bailiff need to be certificated for HMCTS distress warrant?

Are you saying that the bailiff forced entry whilst you sere not on the premises for a fine(without former entry), because if so this is not allowed or legal, under the 2004 act the debtor must be present.

[bluebottle]

Re: Does a bailiff need to be certificated for HMCTS distress warrant?

The police sergeant and bailiff, in Fizz's case, are both talking out of their backsides. No forced entry may be effected, by a certificated bailiff under contract to HMCTS, without them first obtaining authority from a nominated officer at the magistrates court that issued the Distress Warrant. This requires the bailiff to justify forced entry and the nominated officer must not to grant forced entry unless they are satisfied there is valid reason for forced entry. If forced entry is authorised, the bailiff must write the name of the nominated officer on the Distress Warrant. As for the letterhead warrants Marstons wave around, although Marstons have claimed these are lawful, I have taken the liberty of referring this issue to HMCTS. The matter has been referred to high level within in the Ministry of Justice - HMCTS is part of the MoJ - and I am currently awaiting a response.

Fizz needs to check with the magistrates court that issued the Distress Warrant to confirm whether forced entry was authorised or not. If it was not, the bailiff and police officers are in trouble, the police sergeant, especially. A certificated bailiff does not have the same powers of entry as the police. In fact, what powers of entry a certificated bailiff actually has are very limited and subject to a number of conditions being met and complied with.

If Fizz can post up which magistrates court issued the Distress Warrant, I can post up the contact details for the HMCTS Senior Enforcement Manager for that area. I cannot guarantee Fizz will get the cars back, but if it results in Marstons losing their entitlement to fees for non-compliance, justice may done, albeit in a somewhat perverse way.

[Fizz]

Re: Does a bailiff need to be certificated for HMCTS distress warrant?

Are you saying that the bailiff forced entry whilst you sere not on the premises for a fine(without former entry), because if so this is not allowed or legal, under the 2004 act the debtor must be present.

Bailiff watched me leave, I didn't realise the two vans outside were a locksmith and bailiff. He didn't knock. He called me from my house phone. He'd only come to the house the once before and didn't gain entry.

[bluebottle]

Re: Does a bailiff need to be certificated for HMCTS distress warrant?

Bailiff watched me leave, I didn't realise the two vans outside were a locksmith and bailiff. He didn't knock. He called me from my house phone. He'd only come to the house the once before and didn't gain entry.

Then it sounds like this bailiff may not have sought authority from the court to force entry. If this is, indeed, the case, both he and the locksmith are in deep doo-doo.

[bizzybob]

Re: Does a bailiff need to be certificated for HMCTS distress warrant?

Then it sounds like this bailiff may not have sought authority from the court to force entry. If this is, indeed, the case, both he and the locksmith are in deep doo-doo.

If he has relied on DCVA or has assumed an ultra vires off his own back forced entry then he is well and truly down the toilet and is spinning in the whirlpool as it goes down the gurgler.

[Fizz]

Re: Does a bailiff need to be certificated for HMCTS distress warrant?

oh believe me, it gets worse.
I spoke with police officer on phone, asked if they had seen warrant, and stated I was coming back to the house. Arrived 8.55.
Once home, I had the 2 police officers and the bailiff calling bailiffs office requesting warrant (it was at this time I realised and confirmed the police had not seen a warrant, they had been asked to attend in case of 'breach of peace' and they were sure 'all necessary checks wouldve been done before allowing us to attend')

Eventually discovered it was Stratford Mag Ct, who stated, yes he has a warrant, its sent electronically.
The bailiff permitted the police to speak with court to find out if a warrant had been issued. The court told the police details of when it was first issued
It transpires that another bailiff company had tried and returned it to court, and then to Marstons.
Bailiff told me I couldnt speak with the court whilst they were on the line as it is not a public number
The two police officers, on advise from their sergent (theres more advise back and forwards but too much to go into here), advised bailiff to hold off on removing anything as they have asked Marstons to send through the warrants. Marstons couldnt get hold of original then marstons claimed to have sent it by fax to police station, the police station fax 'couldnt be working'. So sargent come down after googling advise. I made the request to see warrant at 8.55, we were still waiting at 13.00 at which point vehicles were taken, after sergeant gave the go ahead.

No certification, no warrant.

And the bailiff and sergeant exchanged pleasantries with promises to get in touch as 'we (bailiff company) could give you training on rights of bailiffs'!!

Court wouldn't send me the original at the time or thereafer, called collections and compliance - no luck.

[bluebottle]

Re: Does a bailiff need to be certificated for HMCTS distress warrant?

If he has relied on DCVA or has assumed an ultra vires off his own back forced entry then he is well and truly down the toilet and is spinning in the whirlpool as it goes down the gurgler.

In practice, BB, exercise of the DVCVA forced entry provision is controlled by HMCTS as a stop and check to prevent abuse by private-sector bailiffs collecting unpaid fines on their behalf. However, the reality is that some bailiffs feel they don't have to comply and force entry regardless. As I stated in an earlier post, it sounds like the bailiff in Fizz's case may not have sought authority from the nominated court officer. Fizz needs to check this with the Regional Enforcement Team for their area who, in my experience, are a lot more switched-on and helpful than court enforcement teams.

[Fizz]

Re: Does a bailiff need to be certificated for HMCTS distress warrant?

Fizz needs to check this with the Regional Enforcement Team for their area who, in my experience, are a lot more switched-on and helpful than court enforcement teams.

OK will try that. Off to work now so may not be able to reply for the day.

Thanks for your responses

[bluebottle]

Re: Does a bailiff need to be certificated for HMCTS distress warrant?

oh believe me, it gets worse.
I spoke with police officer on phone, asked if they had seen warrant, and stated I was coming back to the house. Arrived 8.55.
Once home, I had the 2 police officers and the bailiff calling bailiffs office requesting warrant (it was at this time I realised and confirmed the police had not seen a warrant, they had been asked to attend in case of 'breach of peace' and they were sure 'all necessary checks wouldve been done before allowing us to attend')

Eventually discovered it was Stratford Mag Ct, who stated, yes he has a warrant, its sent electronically.
The bailiff permitted the police to speak with court to find out if a warrant had been issued. The court told the police details of when it was first issued
It transpires that another bailiff company had tried and returned it to court, and then to Marstons.
Bailiff told me I couldnt speak with the court whilst they were on the line as it is not a public number
The two police officers, on advise from their sergent (theres more advise back and forwards but too much to go into here), advised bailiff to hold off on removing anything as they have asked Marstons to send through the warrants. Marstons couldnt get hold of original then marstons claimed to have sent it by fax to police station, the police station fax 'couldnt be working'. So sargent come down after googling advise. I made the request to see warrant at 8.55, we were still waiting at 13.00 at which point vehicles were taken, after sergeant gave the go ahead.

No certification, no warrant.

And the bailiff and sergeant exchanged pleasantries with promises to get in touch as 'we (bailiff company) could give you training on rights of bailiffs'!!

Court wouldn't send me the original at the time or thereafer, called collections and compliance - no luck.

I've come across this sort of BS from bailiffs when I was a copper. If they couldn't produce written authority, they would get a Size 11 police boot up their backsides to the top lacehole. But, then, I am "old school". The police officers of today are a few steps away from gormless.

I note that Stratford MC issued the Distress Warrant. Is that Stratford, as in East London, or Stratford, as in the Midlands? Once you post up which, I can then post up contact details for the HMCTS Senior Enforcement Manager for that area who can "kick ass" if necessary.

[Fizz]

Re: Does a bailiff need to be certificated for HMCTS distress warrant?

If Fizz can post up which magistrates court issued the Distress Warrant, I can post up the contact details for the HMCTS Senior Enforcement Manager for that area.

thank you very much - the issuing court was Stratford Magistrates Court, East London

[bluebottle]

Re: Does a bailiff need to be certificated for HMCTS distress warrant?

thank you very much - the issuing court was Stratford Magistrates Court, East London

Ideal, Fizz. Thank you. I'll post up the contact details for the HMCTS Senior Enforcement Manager for the London area. You would be better sending them an email. Put "For Attn. of Senior Enforcement Manager" in the subject box, then, at the heading of your email, put -

Your Full Name
Date of Birth
Current Home Address
Court Reference

Also, provide contact telephone numbers so that someone from the Regional Enforcement Team, usually, the Service Delivery Manager, can contact you to discuss the matter and confirm any details.

And the contact details are -

Senior Enforcement Manager - London
Email: gl-cao.corresp@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk

Their office is in Southwark, London SE1.

[bizzybob]

Re: Does a bailiff need to be certificated for HMCTS distress warrant?

I would say that the bailiffs and the police are in for a kicking, and potentially cough up damages