Bailiffs visit

[Les Henson]

I had a bailiffe from Ross and Roberts visit me the other day - demanding my G/F pays money owing to Worcester council. I told him she was at work, and he then informed me that he had to come in and sieze goods to cover the debt. I informed him that the house is in my name only, and he wasn't coming in. He rapidly got very aggressive and threatening - standing very close to my face and saying he could force entry if he wanted to/ get a locksmith to open the door while I was out, etc. I told him to leave, and informed him he was now tresspassing, and I would therefore use reasonable force to get him to leave if he didn't do so himself. He took his jacket off, walked to his car, put his jacket in it, and then came back towards me with arms out and fists clenched. I walked to the edge of my property, and as he got right up to me, I shoved him back very hard. He fell to ground, got up, and then called the police, who duly arrived. Although I wasn't arrested, they cautioned me over the incident. Once they had left, the bailiffe continued to threaten me from the safety of his car until I went back indoors. Although I haven't yet heard further from Ross and Roberts, can they enter my house to remove what may well be my own property to pay someone else's debt, or enter my house whilst I'm not in it. ?

Thanks for any help.


Les.

[ploddertom]

Re: Bailiffs visit

Was this for your GF Council Tax at a different address? If it is then in my view you did exactly the right thing. If itwas for CT at an address that she incurred before meeting or moving inwith you then he should not even have spoken to you about this. He may only seize the goods of the debtor. However you may have to provide proof everything is yours - simplest way is a Statutory Declaration. You should make complaints both tothe Council & R&R.

As for the Police did the Bailiff provide them with a copy of the Liability Order which should plainly have the name of the liable person(s) on it. A complaint to the Police should also be made as you had asked said person to remove themselves fromyour property and he refused.

[Les Henson]

Re: Bailiffs visit

Thankyou, ploddertom

My G/F rented a flat in Worcester, where council tax was part of the rent. I don't know what discussion or paperwork the bailiffe had with the Police - other than he accusing me of assault. I offered to make a statement under arrest or of my own free will, and explained what had happened. This alleged debt has
nothing at all to do with me.


Les.

[bizzybob]

Re: Bailiffs visit

Thankyou, ploddertom

My G/F rented a flat in Worcester, where council tax was part of the rent. I don't know what discussion or paperwork the bailiffe had with the Police - other than he accusing me of assault. I offered to make a statement under arrest or of my own free will, and explained what had happened. This alleged debt has
nothing at all to do with me.


Les.

In which case you were entitled to remove the bailiff, and the police were wrong. If you have accepted a caution, this will show on any enhanced CRB, or was it the copper just warning you to be careful at the time?

[Les Henson]

Re: Bailiffs visit

The polioce offer seemed to be unsure of who was wrong or right. I feel he cautioned me to be on the safe side. I think that if the bailiffe had pushed it - I would have been arrested. The bailiffe was still on the public highway when I pushed him, as I was stood on the very edge of my property when it happened. I felt very threatened, and in no doubt that he was going to enter my property again if he wasn't stopped. I have stayed here for 3 days as I don't want to come home to find that someone has got into my house while I'm away.
Can, or are they likely to gain entry to my house if I go out?


Les.

[bluebottle]

Re: Bailiffs visit

I would be inclined to make an appointment to speak to the Station Superintendent where the police officer who attended is based. From what you have said, this sounds as if it is suitable for local resolution. However, there are also issues of the officer apparently not conducting a sufficient investigation before acting. A formal caution has to be administered at a police station by an officer of the rank of Inspector or above and the defendant has to admit the offence. If the defendant won't admit the offence, a formal caution is not, therefore, possible.

The officer should have asked to see the Liability Order. If this had your GF's previous address on the LO, the bailiff had no right, legal or otherwise, to be where he was. Where a bailiff has no right to be at a property, the occupant/owner has the right to use as much reasonable force as is necessary to remove after asking them to leave and they have failed/refused to do so.

As for the bailiff's demeanour, I am very surprised the police officer who attended did not caution or, even, arrest the bailiff for causing intentional alarm, distress or harassment under the Public Order Act 1986. I doubt I would have been much good if I had been there when you put the bailiff flat on his arse. I would have probably been on the ground helpless with laughter at the look on the bailiff's face. They don't expect people to do what you did.

[bizzybob]

Re: Bailiffs visit

I would be inclined to make an appointment to speak to the Station Superintendent where the police officer who attended is based. From what you have said, this sounds as if it is suitable for local resolution. However, there are also issues of the officer apparently not conducting a sufficient investigation before acting. A formal caution has to be administered at a police station by an officer of the rank of Inspector or above and the defendant has to admit the offence. If the defendant won't admit the offence, a formal caution is not, therefore, possible.

The officer should have asked to see the Liability Order. If this had your GF's previous address on the LO, the bailiff had no right, legal or otherwise, to be where he was. Where a bailiff has no right to be at a property, the occupant/owner has the right to use as much reasonable force as is necessary to remove after asking them to leave and they have failed/refused to do so.

As for the bailiff's demeanour, I am very surprised the police officer who attended did not caution or, even, arrest the bailiff for causing intentional alarm, distress or harassment under the Public Order Act 1986. I doubt I would have been much good if I had been there when you put the bailiff flat on his arse. I would have probably been on the ground helpless with laughter at the look on the bailiff's face. They don't expect people to do what you did.

As I thought BB, it was a copper warning OP, but he was out of order anyway, as the bailiff was a prima facie trespasser, and Op had right to use reasonable force to remove the bounder.

[bluebottle]

Re: Bailiffs visit

As I thought BB, it was a copper warning OP, but he was out of order anyway, as the bailiff was a prima facie trespasser, and Op had right to use reasonable force to remove the bounder.

It was confirmed just before Christmas 2012 at either Hove or Lewes Crown Court by a senior Criminal Circuit Judge that where a bailiff has no right or authority to be on or within a person's property, the person has a right to use as much reasonable force as is necessary to remove the bailiff where the bailiff has been asked to leave and has failed and/or refused to do so.

In the OP's case, he would be entitled to use as much reasonable force as is necessary to remove the bailiff involved, but also as much reasonable force as is necessary to prevent the bailiff re-entering or attempting to re-enter.

The bailiff's conduct, IMHO, raises questions as to his fitness to act as a bailiff and, as such, a letter to the DJ at the County Court that issued the bailiff's certificate enquiring as to whether the conduct be taken in account when the bailiff's certificate becomes due for renewal or whether the DJ requires a Form 4 complaint to be submitted is something that should be considered.

A Ross & Roberts bailiff had their certificate revoked, without a hearing, during 2012, by Bournemouth & Poole County Court, on account of their conduct which included attempting to mislead the police, endangerment to life, damage to property, misrepresentation of authority, claiming to be a court bailiff when only a certificated bailiff and trespass. It appears that Ross & Roberts seem to pick wrong 'uns.

[enquirer]

Re: Bailiffs visit

I told him to leave, and informed him he was now tresspassing, and I would therefore use reasonable force to get him to leave if he didn't do so himself.

So far, so good.

He took his jacket off, walked to his car, put his jacket in it, and then came back towards me with arms out and fists clenched.

If this put you in fear of unlawful force being applied to your person, then his actions amounted to assault on you.

I walked to the edge of my property, and as he got right up to me, I shoved him back very hard.

It would have been better to allow him to actually cross onto the property before using force against him.

He fell to ground, got up, and then called the police, who duly arrived.

A large number of bailiffs are criminals. False allegations are commonplace.

Although I wasn't arrested, they cautioned me over the incident.

Was this a formal caution? Where did it take place? Did you sign anything?

How did you describe this incident to the attending officer? If as above, the police have behaved very badly. Consider making a formal complaint.

[bluebottle]

Re: Bailiffs visit

Could be what is commonly referred to as a Street Caution. It needs pursuing with the officer's Station Superintendent. Don't even bother with the Duty Officer (Inspector). If you get no joy from the Station Superintendent, escalate to the Area Commander (Chief Superintendent), then the Chief Constable and, ultimately, to the IPCC. However, do try and get it resolved at local level if you can, which would be the Station Superintendent.

[Les Henson]

Re: Bailiffs visit

The officer said comething along the lines of what you see on the tv - "something you later rely on in court". He also said that I wasn't under arrest. While he was talking to the bailiffe I went back in my house for a while ( I was very angry and upset/shaking). I went back outside after a few minutes and then spoke to the officer to explain what had happened in as much detail as I could. I didn't sign anything at all. The only conversation I took part in was about the supposed assault, and not whether or not the bailiffe had a right to enter my property to sieze items.


Les.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Bailiffs visit

I've no idea what the woodentop thought he was doing but that was certainly not an official police caution as a means of disposing of an alleged offence.

[wales01man]

Re: Bailiffs visit

Sounds like you were cautioned not arrested Bluebottle will advise better than me best now to make sure this bailiff bully cannot gain access to your property and You dont get agressive as this is what he wants so that you get into the dodo and he can feel he was right.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Bailiffs visit

I had a bailiffe from Ross and Roberts visit me the other day - demanding my G/F pays money owing to Worcester council. I told him she was at work, and he then informed me that he had to come in and sieze goods to cover the debt. I informed him that the house is in my name only, and he wasn't coming in. He rapidly got very aggressive and threatening - standing very close to my face and saying he could force entry if he wanted to/ get a locksmith to open the door while I was out, etc.

This is, of course, possible.

It is not permissible, though, nor would it be lawful - the bailiff and his performing "locksmith" would be burglars.

can they enter my house to remove what may well be my own property to pay someone else's debt, or enter my house whilst I'm not in it. ?

Yes, they can - but so can any burglar!

A Statutory Declaration stating that you own all the goods and chattels in the property should stop more nonsense from that oaf.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Bailiffs visit

A Ross & Roberts bailiff had their certificate revoked, without a hearing, during 2012, by Bournemouth & Poole County Court, on account of their conduct which included attempting to mislead the police, endangerment to life, damage to property, misrepresentation of authority, claiming to be a court bailiff when only a certificated bailiff and trespass. It appears that Ross & Roberts seem to pick thugs even Marstons reject.

IFYPFY. :rofl: