bailiffs certificate expired

[bonafide]

Hi all
Without going into too much detail at the moment could anyone tell wether a person acting as a bailiff, ie visiting my home with a FINAL NOTICE giving me 24 hours statutory notice of his "intentions to call back and remove my effects, sufficient to satisfy the debt and costs",is breaking the law if he doesnt have a valid bailiffs certificate?
Surely it is a criminal offence to pretend to be a bonafide court official. Does anyone also know what the penalties are likely to be for such a person if a criminal offence has been commited.
Thanks

[ploddertom]

Re: bailiffs certificate expired

Yes it is iilegal & if true said Bailiff can be hauled before the Courts. Am I assuming you have checked the Bailiff Register to find he is not listed, the list isn't always 100% accurate and you should contact the MOJ to see what they say. If you know the Court that he is Certificated at then you should also ring them to find the current state of play.

[labman]

Re: bailiffs certificate expired

Number is in the bailiffs' guide.

[bonafide]

Re: bailiffs certificate expired

thanks, i thought as such. and yes I did check and even spoke to his "allocating" court his cert had expired when he called and wasnt renewed till some weeks later .An agravating factor is that I queried him not being on the register and he blatantly lied telling me, no assuring me, that it was because the register is often late being updated.He 100% purported to be a court official I am informed that there isnt any period of grace once a licence runs out so please tell me has he committed a criminal offence? if yes what would be the likely punishment taking into account that he has now renewed his license and is once again harassing and lying and bullying and cheating poor "plebs" like myself.
This is likely to be a lengthy thread because when I tried to report it to the police after 1 hour on the phone they fobbed me off telling me that " no crime had been committed" so demanding money with menace,pretending to be a court official ,bandying my personal data about and trumping up fees when he isnt even licensed isnt a crime!!!!!I AM ABOUT TO PREPARE A COMPLAINT TO THE IPC ANY ADVICE?

[ploddertom]

Re: bailiffs certificate expired

You would need to know when the application to renew was submitted as this may have been the cause of the delay. If he is a Certificated Bailiff then he most certainly is not a "Court official" and should be pulled up for mis-representing his powers. I would be inclined to write to his Certificating Court outlining your concerns and see if they invite you to submit more or a Form 4 complaint.

[bonafide]

Re: bailiffs certificate expired

THANKS ploddertom I have just come across this
The Administration of Justice Act 1970 S.40 makes it a Criminal Offence for a creditor or a creditor's agent (often a debt collection agency) to make demands (for money), which are aimed at causing 'alarm, distress or humiliation, because of their frequency or publicity or manner'. Equally, a creditor will be committing an offence if they falsely imply that non-payment of the debt will lead to criminal proceedings; or the creditor pretends to be someone they are not e.g. a court official or bailiff. It is also an offence to send a person a document which looks like it has been sent from a court.


If this is to be believed then the police should allow me to report a crime and stop insisting that its a civil matter.

[bluebottle]

Re: bailiffs certificate expired

Section 40, Administration of Justice Act 1970 is very rarely, if ever, used these days due to the penalties no longer being a deterrent. For a certificated bailiff to attempt to levy distress with an invalid certificate or no certificate at all is an offence under Section 135, County Court Act 1984 (Pretending to Be Acting Under the Authority of A Court). This is an indictable offence and carries a maximum penalty, on conviction, of up to seven years' imprisonment. The other matter is that is any levy would be invalid and, in all probability, illegal as well.

I am attaching a copy of the County Courts Act 1984 and the Distress for Rent Rules 1988. I suggest you print off Section 135, County Courts Act 1984 and the relevant sections of the Distress for Rent Rules 1998 and show them to the police. If they still remain unco-operative I would ask to speak to the Station Superintendent or higher.

[bonafide]

Re: bailiffs certificate expired

Thanks BlueBottle, but as my problem relates to a bailiff demanding payment in relation to a Magistrates Liability Order ( for supposed non payment of council tax ) then would the County Courts Act 1984 apply ...i.e sect 135 states　

　

1. 2. Any person who—　
      delivers or causes to be delivered to any other person any paper falselypurporting to be a copy of any summons or other process of a county court,knowing it to be false; or
      

　
acts or professes to act under any false colour or pretence of the process or authority of a county court;
shall be guilty of an offence and shall for each offence be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years.

Isnt this guy "pretending" to represent the magistrates court?
And also it states in the Distress for Rent Rules 1988
8.

—(1) Any complaint as to the conduct or fitness of any bailiff who holds a certificate shall be made to the court from which the certificate was issued.

Does this mean that as the "gentleman" in question didnt hold a valid certificate then a consequent complaint against the issuing court may fall on deaf ears?
I really want to praise all of you Beagles . I think you are all marvellous.

[bluebottle]

Re: bailiffs certificate expired

The Distress for Rent Rules is the legislation under which certificated bailiffs are certificated and this is undertaken by county courts. Certificated bailiffs enforce debts for things such as Council Tax, National Non-Domestic Rates (Business Rates) and Penalty Charge Notices (PCNs). The legislation relating to the enforcement of these debts almost always requires that a certificated bailiff enforces any distress warrant or liability order.

Specifically, in the case of CT, there is a provision under Regulation 46, Council Tax (Administration & Enforcement) Regulations 1992 (as amended) which relates to something called Irregular Levy. I am attaching copies of the relevant legislation and amendment.

However, before you go down the route of making a Regulation 46 complaint, which involves you laying an information before the magistrates court that issued the original LO and having the local authority summonsed to appear in front of the court and explain why it is allowing irregular levy to take place, you should check with the local authority and ask them if they are aware that their contracted enforcement agent is allowing persons who are not correctly certificated to levy or attempt to levy distress.

Turning, specifically, to the criminal aspects of a bailiff who is not certificated or has an invalid certificate, Burglary Artifice is the first offence that comes to mind. This offence would be committed if an uncertificated bailiff attempted to gain entry to your home, regardless of whether he/she has a valid warrant or LO. If he/she gained entry and removed or attempted to remove any goods, then the offence would be Burglary or Attempted Burglary, as they would be a trespasser. Their legal protection against trespass is linked to them having a valid bailiff certificate.

The other offence that can also crop up is Fraud by False Misrepresentation or Attempted Fraud by False Misrepresentation.

In your specific case, the bailiff lied that he was a court bailiff. This is a common tactic that certificated bailiffs use to mislead debtors and the police alike as to their powers. This is where Section 135, County Courts Act 1984 comes in.

The other matter you need to be aware of is that few, if any, police officers are trained in bailiff law which often leads to claims by them of bailiff incidents being civil disputes or police officers aiding and abetting certificated bailiffs to gain forcible entry to debtors' property in contravention of the law.

You have nothing to lose by writing to the District Judge at the bailiff's certificating court, enclosing relevant evidence and enquiring as to whether they require you to submit a Form 4 complaint. Please be aware, however, that it appears that a court can discharge a bailiff's certificate without requiring a Form 4 complaint or holding a hearing. This has happened in the case of at least one certificated bailiff in Southern England. The circumstances in that particular case were, however, very serious.

[bonafide]

Re: bailiffs certificate expired

My goodness you know your stuff bluebottle!many thanks.
Presently I am waiting for a response from the police, I expect that they will ring me sometime today regarding my threat to complain to the Independant Police Commission.I have also begun a complaint against my L.A. I will keep posting the responses as I get them. I really value you guys an gals input as I would be lost without your help as I am not in any way at all legally qualified, Im just a normal hard working family man...I DRIVE A CAB!
However I can always smell a rat and I knew something was wrong with this "gentleman" BAILIFF.
Maybe it was a sixth sense which made me go through the rigamarole of checking his status and then later questioning his paltry excuses but I proved my hunch to be on the button. But do you know what my latest gut feeling is?
Well I am sorry I have just had second thoughts about revealing too much until I have had some responses as mentioned above.
Needless to say, a big hunch that I have which I feel that I can mention is that I am very conscious that our "bailiff " is reading this Forum as I post .

[bluebottle]

Re: bailiffs certificate expired

It is known that bailiffs and bailiff companies scan the bailiff forums on this and other sites. It can be as educational for them as it is for posters. However, if the bailiff in your case is reading what is on this thread, it might just send him running to the nearest pharmacy for Imodium Plus capsules. He is in big trouble, regardless of whether he has now renewed his certificate. He knows only too well he cannot execute distress without a valid certificate and there is, therefore, no excuse. In any case, there is a principle of English Law - Ignorance of the law is neither a defence or an excuse.

[bonafide]

Re: bailiffs certificate expired

Once again many thanks.
To update you all I have just been called back by the police officer dealing with my desire to report a CRIME and although he seemed very keen to help initially,ie he has checked all of the details with the "bailiffs" certificating court finding that I was correct with my facts he then told me that I" shouldnt be taking advice from internet forums". He went on to say that he wouldnt treat this as a crime because I have the option of a form4 complaint at the for-mentioned court.He said that was my "only option end of story"
Now I am a great supporter of our wonderfull police service but bluebottles earlier post sums it all up
[QUOTE]The other matter you need to be aware of is that few, if any, police officers are trained in bailiff law which often leads to claims by them of bailiff incidents being civil disputes or police officers aiding and abetting certificated bailiffs to gain forcible entry to debtors' property in contravention of the law.

[/#9]
I think something needs to change.....if a crime has occurred it should be investigated by the police. In my case it mightnt be the most serious thing in the world but surely a principle is worth fighting for and last night whilst trying to sleep something occurred to me. During the 2 week period that the bailiff was uncertificated was I the only case that he dealt with? from his accent and the fact that his licensing court is some considerable distance from my home I find it difficult to imagine that he has drove all the way to my home just to deliver his decietfull final notice letter, and moreover dont bailiffs normally have a bunch of "customers" to hit on in a certain local thus increasing their income/commission . If my hunch is right then this particular chap could be responsible for 2 weeks or ten working days at maybe 4 calls per day maybe upto 40 instances where he has acted in a seemingly illegal manner. And furthermore dont forget that his employer ( anon for now ) must be complicit in all of this because I believe that they hand out batches of adresses to their agents.
So my petty little matter with an unlicensed bailiff could end up with at least 40 other ( many quite serious) cases. How would this come about if it isnt investigated thoroughly?Who do we rely on to investigate potential crime ?
Yes its our lads n lasses in blue.
i am still determined to have this matter classed as a crime so is my next option the IPC or does anyone out there on this FANTASTIC INTERNET FORUM have any other good ideas?
And as a parting shot , for now, this is most definitely not the end of this story.

[ploddertom]

Re: bailiffs certificate expired

You have to think to yourself how this may have happened.

Does the Court send a reminder to say his Certificate is due to expire? Possibly
Did he know it was about to expire? He certainly should as he should also know he cannot levy distress without it.
Did his Company know it was about to expire? Unless self employed they should have told him
Did his Insurance Company not remind him? How many Ins Co's do you know that do NOT send reminders?

Caught bang to rights. Yes Form 4 may be an option but would suspect all that would happen is a slap on the wrist and told not to be naughty again. I agree with you about the number of others he has "defrauded" in the interim, a story in the local press may reveal others. As for the boys in blue you may need to go higher up the tree for the funny handshake brigade - unless this happened in Cleveland where it seems the rot starts at the top.

[bonafide]

Re: bailiffs certificate expired

ALL THAT I KNOW IS THAT WHEN QUESTIONED BY ME INITIALLY RE HIS STATUS HE TRIED TO BLAG ME THAT IT HADNT BEEN UPDATED ON THE SYSTEM AND ASSURED ME"EVERYTHING IS IN ORDER" ( i HAVE KEPT HIS TEXT MESSAGES AND ALSO COPIED THEM SAFELY) .Sorry Im not shouting Im just lousy at typing.
As earlier mentioned I drive a cab, a simple but honest job which involves being licensed. My licence lasts for 3 years and yes the council do send a reminder a month before it expires and yes the firm who I choose to get my calls thru also remind me BUT if I drive my cab once my licence has expired it is me who is at fault itll be me who pays any penalties or suffers any punishments and I think that I am right in saying that its me who shall have committed a CRIMINAL OFFENCE!!! iSNT THIS THE SAME HERE OR IS THE LAW DIFFERENT FOR PLEBS LIKE ME i JUST WANT TO REPORT THIS CRIME WHY IS IT SO DIFFICULT?

[bluebottle]

Re: bailiffs certificate expired

I am a retired policeman, Bonafide. The police officer you dealt with needs a good hard kick up his backside for saying what he did. I think you exposed his shortcomings and he didn't like it. Tough.

As regards certificated bailiffs renewing their certificates, it is THEIR responsibility to ensure they renew their certificate in time, not let it lapse. It is an offence for them to levy distress without a valid certificate (Section 135, County Courts Act 1984) and will invalidate any levy or seizure carried out whilst their certificate is invalid. It also means that any legal protection conferred by the warrant or LO against legal action for trespass would not apply. His employers know this and would commit an offence as well, that of aiding and abetting an offence, by letting him levy on and/or seize goods without a valid certificate.

I agree wholeheartedly with Ploddertom's suggestion that you get the media interested in this as it will almost certainly reveal others in the same position as yourself.

As regards getting the police to take this matter seriously, the usual route for complaints is as follows -

Duty Officer (usually, an Inspector) -> Station Superintendent -> Divisional Commander (usually, a Chief Superintendent) -> Chief Constable -> IPCC.

It has been found that going into a police station with the above written on a piece of paper headed up "Complaints Against Police Route" and making sure the officer dealing with you can clearly see it, especially, if it is the Duty Officer, tends to get complaints sorted out at station level. If a complaint reaches Divisional Commander or Chief Constable level, that reflects badly on the Station Superintendent. However, do try and get it sorted out at Duty Officer level first. The escalation route is used only when that fails. If you are asked where you found out about the escalation route, tell them a retired policeman told you.