Task Enforcement - Legal Advice Needed

**Guest** · 17th July 2012, 15:55:PM

Re: Task Enforcement - Legal Advice Needed

I am not sure what you mean by an N4. Did you mean a Form 4? This is for making an official complaint against a bailiff.

Your only grounds for a Form 4 complaint is the bailiff threatened to take your car that is subject to finance.

When you complete the form 4, keep the reason simple. E.g.

On [DATE] at [LOCATION] the bailiff threatened to seize my car a [MAKE AND MODEL] registration [ABC123] which is subject to a hire purchase agreement.

And enclose a copy of the finance agreement with the form 4 when you file it at court.

The fees can be reclaimed one of two ways.

Reclaim it in the small claims court, just claim everything paid and let the court decide how much you should get back. The statutory fee is 28% of the fine. Do check this, because TFL has the power of a government agency, much more power than a local council, so it may have passed secondary legislation to set an alternative fee schedule for the collection for unpaid traffic debts.

If you paid by card, consider completing a chargeback form with your bank on the grounds,

The merchant placed you under duress in order to get you to make over your card details.

If your chargeback is accepted, it gets ALL your money back.

**Guest** · 17th July 2012, 16:08:PM

Re: Task Enforcement - Legal Advice Needed

A note of caution, please take advise before placing a form 4 complaint as it can have costs implications should your claim be rejected.

D

**dilemma10** · 17th July 2012, 16:48:PM

Re: Task Enforcement - Legal Advice Needed

Originally posted by Happy Contrails View Post

I am not sure what you mean by an N4. Did you mean a Form 4? This is for making an official complaint against a bailiff.

Your only grounds for a Form 4 complaint is the bailiff threatened to take your car that is subject to finance.

When you complete the form 4, keep the reason simple. E.g.

And enclose a copy of the finance agreement with the form 4 when you file it at court.

The fees can be reclaimed one of two ways.

Reclaim it in the small claims court, just claim everything paid and let the court decide how much you should get back. The statutory fee is 28% of the fine. Do check this, because TFL has the power of a government agency, much more power than a local council, so it may have passed secondary legislation to set an alternative fee schedule for the collection for unpaid traffic debts.

If you paid by card, consider completing a chargeback form with your bank on the grounds,

If your chargeback is accepted, it gets ALL your money back.

Hi called up Lloyds TSB's debit card visa disputes team and the woman said there is no charge back justification for my claim! So cannot go down that route? Does that even sound right?

**Guest** · 17th July 2012, 17:36:PM

Re: Task Enforcement - Legal Advice Needed

It varies with each bank and how persuasive you are. You need to complete the form, but it is true, the bank doesn’t have an obligation to give you a chargeback.

You must make your chargeback application in writing, and tell your bank that you will escalate your complaint to the financial ombudsman. That might get them to budge. You may need to get a police incident number, and you can do that my making a complaint to police reporting an offence of fraud by false representation and the merchant defrauded you with his fees. There is a template for this, but I am not alllowed to tell you where to find it.

If you paid with a credit card, then you can claim undue duress because the transaction is a credit money transfer regulated by the consumer credit act. There is a template if you want one.

If your effort with the bank fails, then I’m afraid it’s a Form N1. You will get your money back – but at the 11^th hour before you are both called in before the Judge on the day of the trial. Again, there is a template to complete the particulars on your Form N1.

There is a rumour that form 4 complainants can be made to pay costs of the bailiff’s solicitor, but there is no evidence such an order exists. There was a fake costs order that favoured JBW doing the rounds, and it is just coincidence the rumour did originate from a person connected to the same company.

Counsel opinion holds that any order for costs against a complainant would be procedural impropriety, and it can be quickly set aside on a Form N244. The costs rumour only confirmed that bailiffs really do fear being summonsed to court to answer a Form 4 complaint.

**dilemma10** · 17th July 2012, 17:44:PM

Re: Task Enforcement - Legal Advice Needed

Originally posted by Happy Contrails View Post

It varies with each bank and how persuasive you are. You need to complete the form, but it is true, the bank doesn’t have an obligation to give you a chargeback.

You must make your chargeback application in writing, and tell your bank that you will escalate your complaint to the financial ombudsman. That might get them to budge. You may need to get a police incident number, and you can do that my making a complaint to police reporting an offence of fraud by false representation and the merchant defrauded you with his fees. There is a template for this, but I am not alllowed to tell you where to find it.

If you paid with a credit card, then you can claim undue duress because the transaction is a credit money transfer regulated by the consumer credit act. There is a template if you want one.

If your effort with the bank fails, then I’m afraid it’s a Form N1. You will get your money back – but at the 11^th hour before you are both called in before the Judge on the day of the trial. Again, there is a template to complete the particulars on your Form N1.

There is a rumour that form 4 complainants can be made to pay costs of the bailiff’s solicitor, but there is no evidence such an order exists. There was a fake costs order that favoured JBW doing the rounds, and it is just coincidence the rumour did originate from a person connected to the same company.

Counsel opinion holds that any order for costs against a complainant would be procedural impropriety, and it can be quickly set aside on a Form N244. The costs rumour only confirmed that bailiffs really do fear being summonsed to court to answer a Form 4 complaint.

Excellent you are so helpful.
Where it gets confusing is that the first charge in March was paid for on my Lloyds debit card and the second was paid on a corporate credit card which was in my name but owned by my employer. I am due to leave this employer next Friday - so I guess a chargeback is not an option for this one?
Thanks again. I am going to write to my local police and get a crime number - it looks likely that I should pursue via N1.
Regards,

**hantsman** · 27th July 2012, 14:37:PM

Re: Task Enforcement - Legal Advice Needed

Originally posted by davyb View Post

A note of caution, please take advise before placing a form 4 complaint as it can have costs implications should your claim be rejected.

D

I don't believe anybody yet has had costs awarded against them.

**Guest** · 27th July 2012, 15:57:PM

Re: Task Enforcement - Legal Advice Needed

Originally posted by hantsman View Post

I don't believe anybody yet has had costs awarded against them.

I am reliably informed otherwise, however, its your call.

D

**Guest** · 27th July 2012, 16:03:PM

Re: Task Enforcement - Legal Advice Needed

Originally posted by Happy Contrails View Post

Counsel opinion holds that any order for costs against a complainant would be procedural impropriety, and it can be quickly set aside on a Form N244. The costs rumour only confirmed that bailiffs really do fear being summonsed to court to answer a Form 4 complaint.

Could we have confirmation of this please from the source, there is quote a lot of heavyweight opinion that disagrees, who i can name, and have.(as have many others)

D

**bluebottle** · 27th July 2012, 16:19:PM

Re: Task Enforcement - Legal Advice Needed

Originally posted by davyb View Post

Could we have confirmation of this please from the source, there is quote a lot of heavyweight opinion that disagrees, who i can name, and have.(as have many others)

D

One way of settling this, Davy, is I'll email an FOI request to the MoJ and post up the response I receive.

Update: FOI request sent to MoJ at 17:30.

**eriick** · 31st January 2013, 14:07:PM

Re: Task Enforcement - Legal Advice Needed

The only person who can issue a fine is a judge but only after you have been found guilty by a jury of your peers. TRhis is the law, the highest law in the land that over rides all other. This law is COMMON LAW and England is UNDER COMMON LAW JURISDICTION.

Parking Fine of PCN's are nothing more than CONTRACTUAL PAYMENT. The Traffic ENFORCEMENT company are only a third party private company employed to serve civil contracts up on the motoring. Each PCN is an offer to enter into a civil contract. Just like being offer a new mobile with all the whistles and bell but the 24 month contract is asking for £150/month. You do not have to accept or consent to these contracts and I believe is covered by the BILLS OF EXCHANGE ACT.

When the PCN is not paid, the third party company requests the NAME and ADDRESS of the registered keep of the vehicle from DVLA, another third party company. If it still remains disputed and unpaid, it is sent to the Magistrates court, where there is no jury, a judge who is not on his OATH OF OFFICE working privately for yet another THIRD PARTY COMPANY namely the traffic court/Magistrates court, to obtain a revenue from the unaware motorist.

The Bailiff must take and oath of office to obtain a warrant card and they are lawfully bound to that oath but once the warrant card is obtained, they conveniently forget their oath and revert back to being a bully boy debt collector. Totally unlawful!

**eriick** · 31st January 2013, 14:18:PM

Re: Task Enforcement - Legal Advice Needed

This is a copy of my IPCC complaint against the Police. It could equally be levied agains the Bailiffs too.

OnTuesday morning, the 4th December 2012, I left home to go out on ajob, only to find my car had been clamped. I have a Common Lawnotice in the windscreen of my car, informing officials that fines,fees and forfeiture are unlawful. It also states that underCivil Law (Commercial Contract Statutes and Act) I do not consent toentering into a contract relating to unlawful fines and that I willcharge £1500 per item to process their claims. It is my rightas a British Citizen and a Sovereign of the State.
Allof my work tools are in the boot of the car and without my car andtool I cannot do my work and earn an income. I chained up the vehicleto the garage while I called the Police. The Police said it’s acivil matter and left it at that but I don’t have a contract withthem.
Unfortunatelyfor them, I had chained the car to the garage which prevented themfrom lifting it on to the recovery lorry and they had to leave emptyhanded. The court appointed guy called to say he was cutting mycable to seize the vehicle. Now that would be criminal damageso I knew it was a lie. The vehicle remained and so did theClamp!
Monday,10^th December2012, the Bailiffs came back. I was just off out to pickthe wife up from work when I saw their van blocking in my car. I went straight back inside and text the wife to say I can't makeit. To the kitchen then to make a cup of tea and saw theremoval truck arrive. I still had the cable locks attached tothe car and garage, so wasn't worried about them taking it.
Myneighbour came banging on my door to say the clampers were back but Ididn't answer, hoping they thought I was out.
Thenthe wife arrived......... Whoops!
Whenshe opened the door the Bailiff was standing right behind her. I ran down stairs to the front door and pulled her in. TheBailiff attempted to enter right behind her. I attempted toclose the door but he got his large steel toe capped boot in to stopme.
Istated very clearly that 'I do not consent to you entering mypremises and I know you are trying to obtain a walk in possessionorder.' I also told him that I would be putting in a form fourcomplaint about his actions.
Icalled the Police while wedging myself against the door while theBailiff kept pushing. Meanwhile, the wife, who had justfinished her night shift was getting stressed and giving me griefabout people at the door trying to force their way in and demandmoney. It was an absolute nightmare!
ThePolice arrived and demanded I open the door and speak to them. I said gladly, as long as you tell the Bailiff to take two steps backand asked if she was on her oath today?
AnyPOLICE OFFICER, who is acting for the CORPORATE POLICE, and NOTacting as a Constable for and on behalf of Her Majesty QueenElizabeth II and her people, as expressed in the oath of office allpolicemen and women that is, as public servants upon your oath ofoffice to serve with fairness, integrity, diligence and impartiality,upholding fundamental human rights and according equal respect to allpeople, and I will to the best of my power, cause the peace to bekept and preserved and prevent all offences against people andproperty.
Shegot quite rattled by that and said again just open the door for thePolice. I told her she had sworn an oath to defend the rightsof British Citizens, sovereigns of the state from companies demandingunlawful fines, fees and forfeiture. I don't think she likedthat either. I felt a shove at the door and the Police womantold me to open the door. Then she said, 'if you look out hereyou will see it is the police at the door and we need you to stepback and let us come and speak to you'.
Isaw the police man pushing at the door and the Bailiffs standingbehind the Police woman, so I opened the door while saying clearlyand focused ‘do not let the Bailiff in; I do not consent to theirentry.’
Again,the Police woman said just open the door so we can come in anddiscuss this. Again I said I will open the door to the Policebut I do not give my consent to the Bailiffs entering my premiseswhich would enable them to obtain a walkin possession order.
Eventuallythe Police woman told me she was staying downstairs with the Bailiffswhile her colleague came in to talk to me. ‘That’s fine aslong as you don’t mind me closing the door’ I told her. ‘Yes Ido mind' she said, 'because I’m standing in it.’ ‘Well,you’re not going to let them in are you? I still do not consent tothem entering my property’. ‘Do you own the flat?’ shesaid. ‘It’s rented’ I said. ‘Then it’s not yourproperty is it?’ ‘Now you’re starting to get on my nerves withall this nonsense’.
Iescorted the police man upstairs to explain my side of the issue.Despite starting to tell him and indeed show him the PCN letters Ireceived, the lawful Bill Of Rights Notice on the vehicle and theadmin charge they tacitly agreed to by ticketing and clamping mycar. It soon became very apparent that even though I had calledthem to uphold my rights under common law and protect me fromunlawful demands for financial recompense while I had broken no law,their intention was to uphold the demands of the Bailiffs. The PACEACT was mentioned, so I asked what law is that as it is only a CivilLaw Statute Act and I haven’t consented to it. Just like thenewspapers and the Levenson enquiry.
Iwas told by the police woman, who had decided to join her colleagueupstairs in the living room, that the Bailiffs are making charges ofcriminal damage for removing and damaging the clamp and the lock, aswell as Blackmail for attempting to extort money from them for thereturn of their clamp. They also wanted their lock back but I said Ihaven’t toughed it and don’t have it. The Bailiffs, who wereby this time standing in my tiny hall and on the stairs because thePolice woman left the door open and they walked right in. Theywere relaying to the two Officers that I had removed the clamp fromthe vehicle when I was not allowed to, so I can be charged withcriminal damage. I said I didn’t remove the lock because Idon’t have a key. I thought they had removed it and left itby the side of the road, so I went out and bought a £45 lock justlike the one they locked the clamp to my car with and locked theclamp to a lamp post, just in case it went missing and they tried toget me charged with theft. The police kept trying to slam medown and stop me from stating my rights. They gave me twooptions: to pay what I owe or the Bailiff will remove possession fromthe flat. Baring in mind, it was the Police woman who hadlet the Bailiffs enter the property; they could see they were gettingnowhere with me, after I showed them the Birth Certificate of MR RFP and said ‘this is who they want to claimagainst. That is the PERSON of interest to Civil Action.'

ThePolice woman said that the Bailiffs had every right to be herebecause they were serving a warrant signed by a judge.
Iasked where is the Judge? All the Bailiffs claim to have is a pieceof paper with a name to it and maybe a squiggle for a signature. Ihaven't seen any judge. I asked, ‘ if the case was held incourt or in chambers?’ The Police woman said 'In Court'. Towhich I replied calmly. 'Was there a jury?’ 'I wasn't invitedto the magistrate’s place of business to discuss how much moneythey want me to give them'. I asked was there a jury in court? The Police woman said 'there is no jury in County court.' Sohow can a fine are allocated to MR RFP without one?

ThePolice woman then turned her attention to my very upset wife to getme to see reason and put the frighteners on her about losing herlaptop, TV, and everything else with it. She was nearly pullingher hair out by this time and agreed to pay the Bailiffs on hercredit card over a £1000 (FOR TWO TICKETS which I have read on this website, posted by Beagley Bailiff is ILLEGAL.) I begged her not to but she was****ed off with me and the whole situation. I told her the Policewere trying it on with her because they can see she was getting upsetand an easy target but she paid and I think our marriage is now injeopardy to boot.

Afterthe Bailiffs processed the wife’s credit card, they then said theywant their lock back or they would charge another £250 for it. The wife could not afford another payment like that and was beggingme for the lock. You know as well as I that a broken lock isincriminating evidence of criminal damage. So I stated, yet again,that I don’t have the lock. I found the clamp beside the roadand bought another lock (like-for-like) to secure the clamp to a lamppost so it didn’t go missing.
Eventually,the Bailiffs accepted the replacement lock, probably because the wifewas close to tears and they had already robbed £1400 from her creditcard but wanted the key for it. What about the £1500 they oweme for putting the clamp and PCN notice on my vehicle while my Noticereferring to their tacit agreement to pay me if they continue. And,the daily charge of £176 for loss of earnings. The policeofficers, for that is what they were, said there is no way theBailiff were going to pay me and that I need to stop this one mancrusade and just pay what you owe in future. While we are heredealing with this disturbance we are not out doing proper Policework. Having seen they were siding with the Bailiffs anddismissing my rights and the fact that I was the one who called them,I asked calmly if they had been through the ‘Common Purposetraining.’ Theysimply stopped talking to me.

Afterthe Bailiff had obtained their ‘ill gotten gains’ ably assistedby two police officers they all left together. All that remainedwas a receipt and a badly shaken wife, suffering with mental anguish,wondering how she was going to repay the visa.

**pepsie** · 31st January 2013, 15:59:PM

Re: Task Enforcement - Legal Advice Needed

Sorry to have to say...you have handled this entire scenario incorrectly....you use the drivel of the 'freeman' which unless you have full understanding, is the wrong approach...I wish you well but I for one will not be commenting further.

Pepsie

**CleverClogs** · 10th February 2013, 01:41:AM

Re: Task Enforcement - Legal Advice Needed

Originally posted by pepsie View Post

Sorry to have to say...you have handled this entire scenario incorrectly....you use the drivel of the 'freeman' which unless you have full understanding, is the wrong approach...I wish you well but I for one will not be commenting further.

I do hope he didn't use green crayon to write to the IPCC. :rofl:

However, as it was paid by credit card and as he would probably have been overcharged and/or charged for work that was not done, might he use section 75 of the CCA to recover some of the money?

**bizzybob** · 10th February 2013, 09:22:AM

Re: Task Enforcement - Legal Advice Needed

Chargeback, as she was not the debtor, so could qualify as duress. FMOL takes you into dangerous uncharted territory.

Task Enforcement - Legal Advice Needed

Task Enforcement - Legal Advice Needed

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