Council Tax Demand 12 years on .......

[Frank 2012]

Hi there,

New to the form and steered here for probably same reasons as many others, to hopefully get some advice.

We received a Council Tax Statement dated 2012-2013 for the sum of £1036.64 for a property in the neighbouring Borough of Hounslow that we rented 12 years ago, moving out end of 1999.

I immediately called the Council under the assumption that someone was using our details committing identity fraud when it was explained to me that the bill was for missed payments dating back to the time between 1998 - 2000 and the date on the demand notice was in error but not the amount. We have lived at our new property ever since so it has taken the Council 12 years to notify us, our details are on the Electoral Register.

Whilst we had problems at the time paying some months we overpaid others and were under the impression the Council Tax was settled when we moved out but this appears not to be the case according to the Council.

I asked for a breakdown of the bill that came through yesterday with a Statement of Account. The first problem I have is that we won't have any paper trail collaborating what the Council are charging us to prove or disprove that 12 years later we owe them money. Some of the figures also appear arbitrary but perhaps that's my lack of being able to interpret the bill correctly but happy to scan and post it on the board if someone can interpret it for me or it helps.

The 2nd issue I have is that we received another letter today from Chandlers Limited Certified Bailiffs that we should make payment of £625.75 to them directly within 14 days. It says "Formal Notification of Issue of Liability Order for unpaid Council Tax owing to the London Borough of Hounslow"
Then some text is cut off (I will ring them tomorrow to issue correct documents again) which states "text cut off ......against you on 16/09/98 by Brentford Magistrates Court for unpaid Council Tax for the amount of £624.75 (including costs)"
This suggests we were taken to court in 1998 and weren't even aware of this.

Incidentally we have duplicate copies of the Bailiffs Demand but with the same reference number and amount so assume they don't want us to pay the sum twice, or at least I hope not.
So it appears the Council are taking an immediate aggressive stance and to that extent I now feel less inclined to just make payment.

Assuming that were were taken to court in 1998 I presume the Liability Order would have been issued at the same time? And reading on the forum here there should therefore be no time period that will exempt us from paying. Indeed being taken to Court may negate this altogether anyhow.

What I'm confused about is whether the £624.75 are in addition to the amount the Council is asking for? I don't think so as the same amount is noted as missing payment for 01 April 1998 - 31 March 1999 on the Council Statement. Buy why hasn't the Council instructed the Bailiffs to collect the full amount of 1036.64 they claim we owe?

Can anyone recommend a course of action I should take next? I don't have an issue paying if months were missed but as it stands 12 years later I can't verify the Council's statement and coupled with their immediate aggressive stance makes me want to contest this as long as possible until facts can be verified.
In addition it may appear that we were charged up to the period of March 2000, when we had already moved out for 3 months. This technical error in itself makes me concerned that the figures they claim we owe are wrong.

Thanks for any advice in advance!

[ploddertom]

Re: Council Tax Demand 12 years on .......

You need to speak to someone at the Council and ask the following questions:
1 - how many Liability Orders they have against you
2 - the dates they were obtained
3 - the addresses they were for
4 - the period of time each covers
5 - how much each one was for
6 - how much is still outstanding
7 - the dates they were passed on for enforcement
8 - the dates & amounts of any payments

You also need to ask why it has taken them so long to notify you. Providing a LO was obtained within 6 years of it being due then it is never Statute Barred. You should also ask that the Bailiffs be called off until such time all the relevant details and paperwork can be provided to you. For instance did the Council carry out the proper procedures of notification at the time and if so what were they.

Another tack to try is to contact your local Councillor(s) and ask they intervene on your behalf.

As Bailiffs are now involved may I suggest you click the little black triangle to the left and ask your post is moved to the Bailiff Forum.

[Guest]

Re: Council Tax Demand 12 years on .......

This suggests we were taken to court in 1998 and weren't even aware of this.

The council failed to comply with the regulations, which says, the Authority must send you a Final Notice or a Reminder by post to your current address before making an application to a Magistrate for a Liability order against you.

You need to stop enforcement action, and the only to do that is make a simple letter clearly marked FORMAL COMPLAINT and get the liability order quashed under Section 82 of the Local Government Act 2003.

When the Liability order is quashed, it leaves a debt that is more than six years old and becomes statute barred under Sectiion 2 of the Limitation Act 1980. This means a new Liability order cannot be applied for because it is more than six years that has lapsed since the council last communicated with you regarding the debt.

Here is a template letter to get you started.

[HEAD OF COUNCIL TAX ENFORCEMENT]
[NAME OF] Council
[ADDRESS & POSTCODE]

[DATE]

Dear Sir.

FORMAL COMPLAINT

BY POST AND BY EMAIL

Re: Council tax [ACCOUNT NO.] & [amount AS SHOWN ON THE LIABILITY ORDER]

I make this formal complaint because I received bailiff from you on [DATE] collecting the aforementioned liability without having been sent a Final Notice or a Reminder to my home address as required by enforcement regulations.

To resolve this complaint:

1. Return the case to council administration and comply with comply with Regulation 33(3) and 34(1)
2. The council makes the necessary investigation why no Final Notice or Reminder was send to the address the bailiff attended.
3. Quash the Liability Order under Section 82 of the Local Government Act 2003 and confirm in writing this has been done.

If you are unable or unwilling to comply with the regulations, please clearly mark your response letter with the words FINAL RESOLUTION and I will ask the Local Government Ombudsman to intervene.

Yours Faithfully.


[NAME]
Encs. Copy of:
Bailiffs document
cc Bailiff company head office,

[Frank 2012]

Re: Council Tax Demand 12 years on .......

The council failed to comply with the regulations, which says, the Authority must send you a Final Notice or a Reminder by post to your current address before making an application to a Magistrate for a Liability order against you.

3 of the Liability orders were made against us whilst still living at the old address for which paperwork may have been sent and was either not received, ignored or not acted upon. I honestly can't be sure. For the last we had moved out.

Speaking to the Council this morning they have logged LOs for:-
16/10/1996
20/01/1998
16/09/1998
6/09/2000

Speaking to the Bailiffs they have been passed to collect for the LOs 16/09/1998 @ £624.75 and 6/09/2000 for £428.90. This letter hasn't arrived yet but should today.
We have to pay the £624.75 within 2 weeks, the Council refuse to put this one on hold. The one for £428.90 has been put on hold by the Bailiffs, as we were billed up to March 2000 but moved out of the property end of 1999. The Council want us to send them Council Tax Statements from our new address to prove this so that they can make potential amendments.

Does any of this info change things?

[Guest]

Re: Council Tax Demand 12 years on .......

The Council want us to send them Council Tax Statements from our new address to prove this so that they can make potential amendments.

You probably wont have records of council tax going back that far. I certainly dont, and I dont know many people that do.

You can make a sworn affidavit (about £5) and say when you moved out of the charge address. Here is a tamplate:

In the [NAME OF] Magistrates’ Court

BETWEEN

[NAME OF COUNCIL] ("The Billing Authority")

And

[YOUR NAME] (Defendant)

AFFIDAVIT IN SUPPORT OF PLACE AND TIME OF RESIDENCE Ref: [CASE REFERENCE]

I, [NAME] of [ADDRESS AND OCCUPATION], the above-named Defendant, make oath and say as follows:

2. On the [DAY]th day of MONTH] [YEAR], I left the charge address being [ADDRESS OF CHARGE ADDRESS] and that:

3. I was unaware the case had progressed in my absence




SWORN this………….……..day of ………….......20

Before me……………………………………………….(Solicitor/Commissioner for Oaths)

[Frank 2012]

Re: Council Tax Demand 12 years on .......

You probably wont have records of council tax going back that far.

We may do, if not I was hoping that our current Council would carry records and could confirm this as we haven't moved since. There may be other paperwork collaborating this and currently less of a concern as this is easier to verify in my opinion but thanks!

On that note, should I still go ahead and lodge the Formal complaint or is this purely putting off the inevitable of having to make the £624.75 payment now?

[Guest]

Re: Council Tax Demand 12 years on .......

The complaint applies to the last Liability order of 2000, and if you admit to receiving the final notice or the reminder, then you remain liable for the other three.

If you dont have the money, then you can pay in installments, but you should get the case back into council administration because you have not received any notice or communications about the liability for over 10 years now.

You do have a reasonable case to get the liability written off. If you escalate your complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman, the council should, at least, explain why they failed to follow up the liability order before now.

The choice is yours. Pay it and take it on the chin, offer to pay in installments, or fight it all the way up to the Local Government Ombudsman.

[Frank 2012]

Re: Council Tax Demand 12 years on .......

the council should, at least, explain why they failed to follow up the liability order before now.

I asked the question and was told that it had been given to Equiniti who had only now managed to catch up now.

We wouldn't have received the last Liability Order in 2000 as this was issued in September 2000, 9 months after we had moved out. Nothing was forwarded to our new address.

So is it best just to state my case straight to the Ombudsman or send the Formal Complaint first? Sorry, I'm still not grasping why the last Liability Order issued would be the final say when the first 3 would most likely have been sent to our address when still in residence.

My concern is really the 2 week period for the Bailiffs, don't mind investing time and effort given the the way the case is being handled after such a long period of time.

[Frank 2012]

Re: Council Tax Demand 12 years on .......

This is the breakdown of statement .....

I'm struggling with Write On/ Write Off (less so the latter) .....

It's the period 01 April 1998 - 31 March 1999 that we have a Write on of £551.49 I can't figure out and then in 01 April 1999 - 03 March 2000 a Write Off of -£560.25 .......

[Frank 2012]

Re: Council Tax Demand 12 years on .......

I have spoken to Hounslow Council several times now and have done following to date:-

1. Supplied evidence that we had moved out 2 months prior to their final bill and have asked for the bill to be re-adjusted.
2. Outlined an instalment plan in writing that I would pay £100 every month, which I have done for July and August and will continue until paid off.

The Bailiff visited yesterday to put a Notice through the letter box. I phoned the Council this morning again to ask what was happening? They have now put the recovery on hold for a month until sorted out but have asked for me not to pay them directly anymore as it's with the Bailiffs and they won't be aware I'm making payment so could continue recovery (after the month is up). I asked for recovery to be seized, the lady said she didn't have the authority. I then asked to be put through to the Recovery Section but was refused on grounds they don't take calls.

I complained and stated that I would continue making payments to the Council but again was advised not to do so.

Can someone advise please what my next course of action should be. I'm refusing to deal with the Bailiffs and want to continue paying the Council on a monthly basis.
Should I put in a formal complaint to the Head of Tax Enforcement?

[hantsman]

Re: Council Tax Demand 12 years on .......

Def keep paying through the council.

[ploddertom]

Re: Council Tax Demand 12 years on .......

The Bailiff visited yesterday to put a Notice through the letter box. I phoned the Council this morning again to ask what was happening? They have now put the recovery on hold for a month until sorted out but have asked for me not to pay them directly anymore as it's with the Bailiffs and they won't be aware I'm making payment so could continue recovery (after the month is up). I asked for recovery to be seized, the lady said she didn't have the authority. I then asked to be put through to the Recovery Section but was refused on grounds they don't take calls.

I complained and stated that I would continue making payments to the Council but again was advised not to do so.

Can someone advise please what my next course of action should be. I'm refusing to deal with the Bailiffs and want to continue paying the Council on a monthly basis.
Should I put in a formal complaint to the Head of Tax Enforcement?

Unfortunately you cannot stop the Bailiff calling. The Council however have shot themselves in the foot over their comments. The tell you they can't interfere and recall the debt but at the same time have put this action on hold. Definitely a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand does. Of course the Council can call the debt back as they 100% liable not only for the actions of their agent but also for the charges he may make. Any payments you make to the Council direct should be notified by them to the Bailiff. You may have to allow for lawful Bailiff fees as he can charge for his first 2 visits only, providing he does not gain entry to your home or otherwise make a levy on goods outside.

Doesn't matter whether you get an agreement over payments to the Council or not, you are in charge and pay what you can afford. Best way of doing this if you can is to split it down into weekly payments as this quickly builds a payment history should they decide to take the matter further.

[bluebottle]

Re: Council Tax Demand 12 years on .......

Chandlers are licensed by the OFT as a condition of contract/tender with the local authorities for which they enforce tax debts, in addition to any consumer debt they may collect for other clients. This means that they must comply with the OFT's Debt Collection Guidelines, a copy of which I am attaching to this post. Whilst certificated bailiff companies may puff their chests out and throw their weight about, as such, you don't have to deal with them and there is nothing in English Law that says you have to deal with certificated bailiffs. Do not tolerate any bullying or sharp practice from any Chandlers bailiff who may contact you and, certainly, do not take any bull from their office staff. In addition to the OFT Guidelines, I am attaching the National Standards for Enforcement Agents and Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992. You will find these useful for countering any bull from Chandlers or the council who are playing silly buggers. If you get any problems with Chandlers, come back onto this thread and we will see what help and/or advice you need.