Marston Bailiff - threatening police!

[big gus]

Dear all,

I've searched the forum and although finding several threads on Marston Bailiffs I cant find anything that helps with our situation. Please help!

Today we had a letter arrive at our commercial property (Guest House, we dont live there, we rent a flat elsewhere). REMOVAL NOTICE. From Marston High Court Enforcement Officers and certified bailiffs.

The fine is £359:16 and relates to unpaid council tax at a property we lived in for six months (rented) but left. We didn't once receive a letter claiming we were behind with council tax. This is the first we know about it!

Phoned the Council straight away today to ask what the charge actually was (we didnt realise it was council tax, the letter just said 'council charge'.... he said the debt's been passed over to Marston because we've been served a final notice. (we haven't!!). He says they've been sent to the previous address, which is why we havent seen them. He told us to ring Marston.

On ringing Marston, the woman said every time they come to the property or send out a letter we incur charges. She also told my petrified wife that unless we pay the full amount tonight, they have the right to come to the property and price up goods tomorrow. They also have the right to enter the property with Police if we arent there (we are often at the cash & carry etc so probably wont be there tomorrow for the whole day).

She said we should've contacted her sooner and refused to accept this was the first letter we'd had.

I am happy to pay the money but she said they wouldnt take instalments. She said we must pay tonight in full or the bailiffs will return tomorrow and the costs will rise. Marston have frightened my wife to death on the phone with threats of entry/removal of goods.... we are happy to pay the money if given some time as this is the first we have heard of the debt.

Please help advise if you can... i dont know whether to pay in full on a credit card this evening (is the £359 inclusive of bailiff fees??? I am not paying those, if so. If its all council tax I will pay it but it will be credit as I dont have it) as I dont want them entering the property tomorrow when we arent there.

I wanted some time to research this but Marston are saying pay tonight or the fee rises.

Thank you for any help
gus

[labman]

Re: Marston Bailiff - threatening police!

Hi,

Please reassure your wife that they are lying through their teeth and have no such rights unless you choose to let them into your property which obviously you would not do.

Have a read of this:

Bailiffs and COUNCIL TAX enforcement - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum


It covers your circumstances almost exactly.:beagle:

[bluebottle]

Re: Marston Bailiff - threatening police!

Report these lying scumbags to the police on a Witness Statement Form citing the following -

Section 1, Malicious Communications Act 1988
Section 2, Protection from Harassment Act 1997

And take note of Labman's advice and on no account let them into your property. They won't come with the police unless they have a court order signed by a judge or magistrate. If they haven't got a court order and try to make a forceable entry, they are committing a criminal offence, namely, burglary, and you are at liberty to throw pepper in their faces in order to protect your property and person. Black, cayenne or chilli pepper is best - that's what's in the pepper spray used by UK police forces, only in a very concentrated form.

[big gus]

Re: Marston Bailiff - threatening police!

Thank you (THANK YOU!) Lab and blue bottle. I've read through that link you provided. Can I clarify a couple of points, please?

We didnt receive a final letter and the Council admitted on the phone earlier they sent it to an old address. So we are not liable for bailiff fees?

Also, the Council should not have sold the debt to Marston (as they didnt serve us with a final notice) and we can pay them (council) the debt via phone tomorrow?

My fear is that the Council will say they've already sold on the debt and seeing as the Bailiffs are due to come round again tomorrow (allegedly at our cost) we wont have time to settle this before then.

Should I simply ignore the bailiffs when they knock tomorrow whilst trying to sort this out with the council? Or pay the debt off with the bailiffs then try and reclaim (bailiff fees etc) from the Council?

Arrrrrgh. We've been given no time.

Thanks again.

[labman]

Re: Marston Bailiff - threatening police!

Seriously, don't worry. The council doesn't sell the debt to the bailiff company, the bailiffs act on behalf of the council as their appointed agents.

This means the council is known as what is termed 'vicariously liable.' This means they are responsible for the conduct of their appointed agents - in this case the bailiffs.

They can't use the excuse you're worrying about. In fact they can't use any excuse as the council have done things incorrectly so have to take the debt back, free from fees.

However, don't expect to point tihs out and the council roll over and take it back. The council will lie and cheat just as much as bailiffs, and are likely to tell you they cannot do anything and you have to deal with the bailiffs. You may well need to be fairly assertive - just stay very calm and polite, but totally unmoving. Remeber you are in the right here, and if they don't know the law, or are choosing to ignore it, it is their problem, not yours.

As a precaution just make sure doors are locked and windows shut. It's always better safe than sorry. However, I strongly suspect you will see sight nor sound of them tomorrow.

[pepsie]

Re: Marston Bailiff - threatening police!

Take a look at the small print on their letterhead.....HCE do not get involved with Council Tax ....its the old lets scare them *****less letterhead that does it for them...they are bailiffs not HCE Officers...so back to the kennel for them yet again and you just pay the Council using the online payment system or even good old fashioned cash at their offices, do however remember to allow for ligitimate baiff fees when making your payments...£42.50 is the maximum they can charge without gaining a levy.

He will huff and puff and make all kind of threats but in reallity he can do nothing ....

Pepsie

[bluebottle]

Re: Marston Bailiff - threatening police!

Gus,

If you have a video camera, have it handy and battery fully-charged just in case these scumbags call. That way you will have any lies, threats, etc., on audio and video and can then complete a Form 4 (aka Bailiff Complaint Form) and submit to the court that issued the bailiff's certificate along with the video footage on a DVD, sending a copy to the Chief Executive of your local council so that they can see what evidence is going to be shown to a court. When it comes out that the council have employed scumbags, just enjoy the fireworks display spewing from the council's HQ.

Someone did that with a Rossendale's bailiff who misrepresented his authority and was found guilty of same at Truro County Court. The video footage for that is on YouTube.

Oh, one last thing, make sure you have pepper ready, just in case they do try to force their way in.

[Guest]

Re: Marston Bailiff - threatening police!

. Can I clarify a couple of points, please?

We didnt receive a final letter and the Council admitted on the phone earlier they sent it to an old address. So we are not liable for bailiff fees?

No you are not.


Complaints nearly always arise because you have moved and the Council sent reminders to your old address, then enforcement action took place at your new address without the council re-sending the Final Notice or a Reminder.

The Regulations says the Authority must send you a Final Notice or a Reminder by post to your current address before making an application to a Magistrate for a Liability order against you.

You need to write to the council in a simple letter headed FORMAL COMPLAINT.

[HEAD OF COUNCIL TAX ENFORCEMENT]
[NAME OF] Council
[ADDRESS & POSTCODE]

[DATE]

Dear Sir.

FORMAL COMPLAINT

BY POST AND BY EMAIL

Re: Council tax [ACCOUNT NO.] & [amount AS SHOWN ON THE LIABILITY ORDER]

I make this formal complaint because I received bailiff from you on [DATE] collecting the aforementioned liability without having been sent a Final Notice or a Reminder to my home address as required by enforcement regulations.

To resolve this complaint:

Return the case to council administration and comply with comply with Regulation 33(3) and 34(1)

The council makes the necessary investigation why no Final Notice or Reminder was send to the address the bailiff attended.

Quash the Liability Order under Section 82 of the Local Government Act 2003 and confirm in writing this has been done.

I will make the repayments for what I lawfully owe in affordable monthly installments of [AMOUNT] starting on [DATE].

If you are unable, or unwilling to resolve this complaint in full, please mark your response letter with the words FINAL RESOLUTION and I will ask the Local Government Ombudsman to intervene.

Yours Sincerely.

[NAME]
Encs. Copy of:
Bailiffs document
1st installment cheque (if applicable)

It is good advice to contact your local councillor at this point and get him on side.

Your post is a bit confusing because you say its council tax, a fine and the bailiffs are from Marston. They do not collect unpaid council tax, they only bid on local authority contracts for collecting traffic debts and court fines, but they have a sideline working as High Court Enforcement Officers.

Can you clarify the nature of the debt and I can give the appropriate guidence.

[labman]

Re: Marston Bailiff - threatening police!

It is possible that it has ended up with Marstons as HCEO's, if the original bailiffs pursued at the old property and got no joy, it could then have been returned to the courts and passed on to Marstons for enforcement.

If this is the case, there is still no cause to worry, as they need to pursue and send relevant final notices etc... to your current address. you therefore have no fees to pay and should send the letter above as per the link in my first reply.

[ploddertom]

Re: Marston Bailiff - threatening police!

Marstons do indeed collect Council Tax & NNDR Council Tax and Non Domestic Rates NDR | Marston Group but please note both of these debts are collected by their Certificated Bailiffs - HCEO's have nothing to do with the collection of Liability Orders for Council Tax it is not within their remit.

[labman]

Re: Marston Bailiff - threatening police!

In which case it's back to exactly what I said in the first place. Contact the council, ask them to take it back under the criteria mentioned and suggest a sensible repayment plan.

[ploddertom]

Re: Marston Bailiff - threatening police!

It has been said earlier about the Notices sent to a previous address to where the OP now resides. This is covered in the CT Regs Rule 35 (2) (b) & (c)

[big gus]

Re: Marston Bailiff - threatening police!

Well, I thought it would be discourteous not to provide an update.

Took the advice here and phoned Marston, citing the info given above. The woman claimed the bailiffs could "be there any minute" but once I started quoting things at her, she became agitated. The line got cut off.

I then phoned the council quoting the laws, sections and paragraphs. The first guy spluttered and claimed he would need to pass me onto a team leader. 15minutes later, she called me. The first thing I brought up was the Final Notice not being sent to my current address. She claimed the final notice only needed to be sent to our "last known address" and that because I hadnt informed them of it when moving house, it was my fault and all charges stood (I'll get onto the charges in a sec). I quoted the relevant section to her about CURRENT address, told her it was the law of the land in black and white, and eventually she seemed to backtrack. 1-0! Thanks Bluebottle and Lab.

Next, I asked what the actual charge to the Council was (the charge from the bailiff was £359:16) and she said it was £188. I explained that I'd never tried to get out of paying, I just wasn't aware of the underpayment as we'd received no letter. I immediately offered to pay the £188, as I had said I would all along. I've never tried to get out of owing what was due. But I said I wouldnt pay the bailiff fee. Marston's had left us another two threatening messages on my wife's phone by this stage.

After much too-ing and fro-ing, the lady said she would accept the payment and call off the bailiffs. And - eventually - she admitted they'd been wrong (when I asked why on earth they'd called the bailiffs and not just contacted me about the missing payment. I have another property in the area on which I've never missed a council tax payment. All she had to do was search for my name on the system and she would have found my current address and my business property address!!) She said they dont have the man power to look into each case individually so they just call in the bailiffs every time a non-payment is flagged!

Sorry for the length of post.

Thank you very much (genuinely) to Bluebottle and Lab who provided the early info to help us. Also to those of you who replied since. It's rare to find genuine folk these days. We are very grateful for your advice.
Cheers!

[labman]

Re: Marston Bailiff - threatening police!

Hey Big Gus, that's a REALLY good result - well done you for sticking to your guns and fighting.

The councils repeatedly do this, and sadly much of the time they get away with it. Fortunately you found this site and found some support.

Don't abandon us now - stick around and use your knowledge to help others in the same situation. There's loads come through here.

Really pleased for you - well done.

[bluebottle]

Re: Marston Bailiff - threatening police!

Thanks for letting us know how you got on, Big Gus. Well done for putting the council in their place and getting them to admit they had cocked-up. I am, however, somewhat concerned about them instructing bailiffs because they're too lazy to follow proper procedures. You are entitled to pursue this via the Local Government Ombudsman (LGO) if you so wish. You've certainly got good grounds for a complaint. I'd certainly go for an apology from the CEO of your local council. Again, well done.