Bailiffs and animals?

[Monzter]

Hi,

I'm new to all this but I have researched a lot and have managed to get some results with bully boy bailiffs by reading about. However I have a couple of questions regarding bailiffs and animals which I can't find the answers to definitely.

1) Can bailiffs seize household pets? I know that some dogs/cats/reptiles can be worth a fair amount of money sometimes and I'm wondering if the bailiff would have the power to seize them if it came down to it for sale? If so are there specific laws etc that state how the animals must be kept and transported and where they must be kept and provision made for any special and veterinary care needed?

2) What about horses? To seize, care for and sell the average riding horse worth between £500 - £4000 probably wouldn't yield much of a return after travel, stabling, feeding and selling costs are addressed. Such horses are also usually kept at a place away from the debtors home, that usually belongs to someone else, so what would be the deal there? Can they enter someone else's property to remove something that belongs to you? Could they also take equipment that is for the provision of the correct care for the horse?

3) The guidelines state that they cannot take anything belonging to, or obviously for the sole use of a child - would that include animals (ponies included) owned by the child?

I'm sorry if this is a strange or silly question, I do have reasons for asking and I don't want to give out too much info on a public forum.
Thank you

[labman]

Re: Bailiffs and animals?

John Kruse in his book 'The Law of Seizure of Goods' sheds some light on this. It provides a complete list, but I have only quickly scanned it.

However, under income tax distraint all goods and chattels may be seized. In Swann v Sloan (1895) 29 ILT 109 a plough horse was seized.

Enforcement agents should not remove anything clearly identifiable as an item belonging to a child or for the exclusive use of a child.

Most animals are named as being seizable, but depending on the context. For example a farmers cattle or sheep cannot be seized, but if they are too young to be of real value as a farm animal, they may be seized and sold.

I will read further tomorrow, and try to answer specifically, but it would appear that they can be seized if not working animals.

[Angry Cat]

Re: Bailiffs and animals?

Family pets, they cannot seize!

[Monzter]

Re: Bailiffs and animals?

Thank you lab man - as an example a pleasure riding pony or pet puppy given to a child as a present?

Thanks very much I apppreciate it
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------

Family pets, they cannot seize!

So would that include say a dog/cat/reptile that may be worth a bit of money as it is considered a family pet? I'm just not sure if it would be considered as an 'asset' due to monetary value.

[Bill-K]

Re: Bailiffs and animals?

Not my area for advice, this, but just a 'tangential' thought.

Couldn't a pet perhaps be considered as a liability, and NOT an asset - and thus not in the category of 'seizable' possessions, anyway ? In fact, the more expensive and/or exotic, the higher the cost of its' upkeep.

I believe that, historically, the tradition of rulers giving exotic animals to each other was an underhand way of depleting each others' resources, whilst appearing to be most generous. I remember - and this is my only backup for this - a You-Tube piece showing a Tower of London Yeoman explaining this to the tourists. It was polar bears in that instance, as I recall.

Whimsical, maybe. Factual, maybe not. But it was a thought...!!!¬

[charitynjw]

Re: Bailiffs and animals?

Not my area for advice, this, but just a 'tangential' thought.

Couldn't a pet perhaps be considered as a liability, and NOT an asset - and thus not in the category of 'seizable' possessions, anyway ? In fact, the more expensive and/or exotic, the higher the cost of its' upkeep.

I believe that, historically, the tradition of rulers giving exotic animals to each other was an underhand way of depleting each others' resources, whilst appearing to be most generous. I remember - and this is my only backup for this - a You-Tube piece showing a Tower of London Yeoman explaining this to the tourists. It was polar bears in that instance, as I recall.

Whimsical, maybe. Factual, maybe not. But it was a thought...!!!¬

Hence the term 'white elephant' (King of Siam gave them)

[Bill-K]

Re: Bailiffs and animals?

Hence the term 'white elephant' (King of Siam gave them)

"So let it be said. So let it be written...!!!"
LOL @ your command of trivia, Chaz !!! I never knew what an Oxford Comma was until recently, thanks to you. Tell me, though, if you will - is there one in Yul Brynner's line: "...et cetera, et cetera, et cetera..." - ?

[charitynjw]

Re: Bailiffs and animals?

"So let it be said. So let it be written...!!!"
LOL @ your command of trivia, Chaz !!! I never knew what an Oxford Comma was until recently, thanks to you. Tell me, though, if you will - is there one in Yul Brynner's line: "...et cetera, et cetera, et cetera..." - ?

Don't think so, Bill.

To try & further my education, I went to a 'Grab a Grammar' night down at the local club.......................scary!!!

(Apologies to Monzster for kidnapping the thread!)

[Bill-K]

Re: Bailiffs and animals?

Don't knock it.

No...really......DON'T !!!

There's a lot to be said for experience. Most of it unrepeatable.

[Apologies to Monzter echoed]

[labman]

Re: Bailiffs and animals?

Thank you lab man - as an example a pleasure riding pony or pet puppy given to a child as a present?

Thanks very much I apppreciate it
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------


So would that include say a dog/cat/reptile that may be worth a bit of money as it is considered a family pet? I'm just not sure if it would be considered as an 'asset' due to monetary value.

Still to check this properly which I can do this afternoon, but I do remember reading last night that anything genuinely given to a child as a present may be regarded as the child's property and thus not seizeable. It amused me as it actually mentioned something about the child having the right to take the bailiff to court. I would love to see Mr Nastyman being screwed in court by a little 7 year old. :tinysmile_grin_t:

Will look it up fully for you this afternoon.

[ploddertom]

Re: Bailiffs and animals?

Any tangible asset belonging to a debtor may be seized including animals. However due to the specialised need for care and well being this rarely happens as the Bailiff has a duty of care for those items he seizes and removes. Probably the person most likely to do this will be a High Court Enforcement Officer.

[Monzter]

Re: Bailiffs and animals?

Don't think so, Bill.

To try & further my education, I went to a 'Grab a Grammar' night down at the local club.......................scary!!!

(Apologies to Monzster for kidnapping the thread!)

No problem - lightens the situation which can only be good!!

Thanks for replies so far very much appreciated
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------

Still to check this properly which I can do this afternoon, but I do remember reading last night that anything genuinely given to a child as a present may be regarded as the child's property and thus not seizeable. It amused me as it actually mentioned something about the child having the right to take the bailiff to court. I would love to see Mr Nastyman being screwed in court by a little 7 year old. :tinysmile_grin_t:

Will look it up fully for you this afternoon.

Thank you labman I too would love to see Billy Bailiff being screwed in court for employing their shady tactics. I'm sick of being treated worse than a criminal for having a couple of hundred quid in debts that are being paid. It's shocking some of the things that I've read how these companies and bailiffs behave!

[labman]

Re: Bailiffs and animals?

Right - I have the list - 65 pages long, so I may not cover eveyrthing. I'll do my best to summarise anything to do with, or apply to animals. I've tried to put the most relevant first. All relevant laws can be quoted on request (but please don't as I'd have to find the right page again!)

A debtor can be sued if their dog prevents the lawful right of a bailiff to enter their premises.

If a person has a valuable horse at livery or if they have a pedigree cat or dog, there is no reason why that should not be distrained and sold. If, though, the animal is simply an ordinary mongrel it has no resale value and there is no good reason for listing it.

Bailiffs will seldom seize pets or livestock because of the considerable cost and paperwork involved in transporting them safely, caring for them and arranging sale.




Personal effects of minimal worth (and very like not attractive at public auction) should not be taken.

In some cases jointly owned goods can be seized.

Exempt goods for magistrates' court distraint, income tax and VAT distraints do no mention animals , though the last two say all goods and chattels can be seized.

Not to do with animals, but heirlooms cannot be seized.

When levying on farming stock horses, sheep and cattle are exempt.

Children may be given personal property in any manner, "for the boy hath capacity to take it."
Purchase of property by a child is valid and effectual.
Above are exempt.Subject to special procedural provisions (CPR Part 21), the child may tkae court proceedings to protect their property.

Gifts bought with joint money may be siezed. (Husband and Wife, living together etc...)

If the farm is a limited company - Assets on a farm may be either fixed or floating, charging all the livestock..... as security for short term credit, under s% Agricultural Credits Act 1928. Such charges, whether crystallised or not, do not prevent distress....

Distress for Rent
The basic common rule is that any item on the premises may be taken to a value sufficient to cover the rent arrears....Categories of exemption (or privilege) are separate exclusive clauses.

Sheep and beasts which 'gain' the land (ie plough beasts) are privileged. However if the beasts are too young to be used for this purpose, they are not privileged.

Wild animals have abosolute privilege (total exemption)

Cattle or stock feeding on the commons or on the road may be seized, as may a stranger's cattle that have been allowed on the premises or have strayed onto the farm by breaking through sound fences.

[Monzter]

Re: Bailiffs and animals?

Thank you for your time and effort lab man - so summing up I think that yes, in theory, they could levy and seize an animal if it was considered to be valuable enough to cover a debt but they are unlikely to do so because of the costs and troubles involved in transporting and caring for such animals.

As for the child owning an animal then it would seem to me after reading through, that an animal owned by a child could not be taken.

Just a thought on horses though - it is illegal to sell a horse/pony without a current passport, and I'm pretty sure it's illegal to transport one without a passport. Whilst they do not prove ownership they do prove the animals identity, for vaccination and infection control purposes. Presumably if the passport was not with the animal when it was seized and then sold this would be breaking the law and defra are very interested in such things after the foot and mouth outbreaks.

Thanks again for the info guys

[labman]

Re: Bailiffs and animals?

You're teaching me a lot here - I never knew horses had passports. I was envisaging them getting onto a plane and going through customs!

The answer is no, they cannot be sold without a passport. A valid passport is proof the animal has not been stolen.

Horse passports - why you need them and what they contain : Directgov - Home and community