B&S bailiff has given notice of seizure on my partners car.

[Dirac]

Hi, new to the forum.

Just got home, 15/11/11, and found a Notice of Seizure of Goods from Bristow and Sutor with an inventory of goods seized listing my partners car that was on the drive. Also included is a "Memorandum of Amounts Due" listing 2 council tax accounts from 5 and 3 years ago. They have added 2x 24.50 visit fees, one for each case, 2x Levy fees, one for each, and a single "Redemption of Goods Fee" of £24.50. *The vehicle listed is worth around 10 times the value of the debt*

The amounts of both accounts is wrong, and by the nature of the difference it is obvious that this is due to misreading something handwritten (818 instead of 916, 119 intead of 169). Also, the levy fees for both are incorrect according to the information on this site.

The visit fee is dated 19/10/11, a day when both my partner and I were in all day. It is feasible that this visit may have been to a previous address as we have recently moved.

This is the first we have heard of this debt. The property in question was owned by my mother and was rented out to family friends, who were evicted after trashing the house. Suffice to say we no longer have any contact with them. My guess is that one of them has listed me as liable for the council tax when someone has knocked at the door.

My questions are:
Is it too late to contest liability for the council tax, and if so, how would I go about this?
Are Bristow and Sutor's fees legal and reasonable?
Do they have any claim over any goods belonging to my partner, and what constitutes proof of ownership?

So glad I found this site!

[labman]

Re: B&S bailiff has given notice of seizure on my partners car.

Have a read of this:

Bailiff Guide - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum

and come back with any remaining questions.

They have already overcharged you, so at some stage, though I would imagine a little later in proceedings, you will want to be sending a SAR (see under Bailiffs tab at top of page).

[Swingletree]

Re: B&S bailiff has given notice of seizure on my partners car.

My questions are:
Is it too late to contest liability for the council tax, and if so, how would I go about this?
Are Bristow and Sutor's fees legal and reasonable?
Do they have any claim over any goods belonging to my partner, and what constitutes proof of ownership?

So glad I found this site!

First thing tomorrow, write to the Council Principal Revenue Officer dealing with CT and demand a written statement on when and how much is outstanding and on what property and for what year. Get them to put a recovery hold on the account in question. Ask them to confirm the charges & fees the Bailiffs should be applying. You may consider telephoning the Council is easier but unfortunately you may well be fobbed off by someone who is better than answering the phone than they are in dealing with the legal aspects of CT recovery.

The bailiffs have no claim on anyone one who is not responsible for CT.

Proof of Ownership = Bill of Sale

Just a word of advice............... the bailiffs are only working as agents of the Council, try to deal only with the Council.

Have a look around this site, there are loads of advice and particularly look here

The Collection Enforcement Recovery of Council Tax - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum

Good Luck

[Dirac]

Re: B&S bailiff has given notice of seizure on my partners car.

After reading the link again I'm unclear on a couple of points:

Does the "seizure of goods" form have any validity whatsoever, or is it simply a ploy to ellicit a signature on the attached "Walking Possession Agreement (Request not to remove goods)"?

There has been no contact with Bristow and Sutor or their representative.

Is there any case for complaint based on the misrepresentation of the nature of the paperwork I am being asked to sign? It is labelled as a "REQUEST NOT TO REMOVE GOODS), yet it legally entitles the bailiff to do just that.

What constitutes legal ownership? Due to a major incident a short time ago ago I have no possessions other than clothes and the tools of my trade (student, so expensive text books etc). Whilst I have made contribution to household bills and rent etc she has made any further purchases such as the TV and games console, although some of these purchases were made using my cards, but the money was hers. My partner owns all of the furniture and household goods, but how would we prove this? Would this require an affidavit of some form?

I realise this is not particularly relevant in this case as there is no walking possession, but I wonder if it might be a simple way to have the debt returned to the council, so I can deal with them instead of their attack dogs? If they can see proof that they have no position to threaten me, i.e. I have nothing they can take, they may be forced to give it up as a bad job?

[WendyB]

Re: B&S bailiff has given notice of seizure on my partners car.

You should write to the council and inform them that you were not living in the property at the time, and give the names and current addresses (if known) if the people that were. You are only liable for council tax in the property you were living in at the time, so if you can show you were on the electoral register and paid c tax at wherever you were living then they would presumably have to remove the liability for the address you weren't living at.

[Dirac]

Re: B&S bailiff has given notice of seizure on my partners car.

You should write to the council and inform them that you were not living in the property at the time, and give the names and current addresses (if known) if the people that were. You are only liable for council tax in the property you were living in at the time, so if you can show you were on the electoral register and paid c tax at wherever you were living then they would presumably have to remove the liability for the address you weren't living at.

Unfortunately, proving I didn't live there will be very hard as over this period I was touring the UK living in a tent, squats and cash-paid bedsits, and was foolish enough to not consider the consequences of simply "dropping off the radar". At the time I didn't even have a bank account, have a registered address or even any proof of identity. There are some records of me at my mothers' address, but they are patchy. The best I can do is probably some form of statement from the owners of the property (My mother and her partner) to the effect that I was not their tenant. The complication here may be that there was never any form of legal tenancy agreement in place with the people who did live there, the whole thing was informal.

For several years now I have been struggling to overcome issues like these, and I am finally getting to the point where I can be considered to have a normal life again. Problems like this, whilst an expected side-effect of my previous poor decisions, really do make the whole recovery process much harder!

[labman]

Re: B&S bailiff has given notice of seizure on my partners car.

After reading the link again I'm unclear on a couple of points:

Does the "seizure of goods" form have any validity whatsoever, or is it simply a ploy to ellicit a signature on the attached "Walking Possession Agreement (Request not to remove goods)"?
I think you're talking about the Notice of Seizure which would be for the car.

There has been no contact with Bristow and Sutor or their representative.

Is there any case for complaint based on the misrepresentation of the nature of the paperwork I am being asked to sign? It is labelled as a "REQUEST NOT TO REMOVE GOODS), yet it legally entitles the bailiff to do just that.

What constitutes legal ownership? Due to a major incident a short time ago ago I have no possessions other than clothes and the tools of my trade (student, so expensive text books etc). Whilst I have made contribution to household bills and rent etc she has made any further purchases such as the TV and games console, although some of these purchases were made using my cards, but the money was hers. My partner owns all of the furniture and household goods, but how would we prove this? Would this require an affidavit of some form? You can sign a sworn affidavit at any High Street solicitors swearing that the goods in the house are not owned by you. This amounts to the same as swearing under oath in a Court of Law.

I realise this is not particularly relevant in this case as there is no walking possession, but I wonder if it might be a simple way to have the debt returned to the council, so I can deal with them instead of their attack dogs? If they can see proof that they have no position to threaten me, i.e. I have nothing they can take, they may be forced to give it up as a bad job?

It would seem to me if you are not liable for this debt it should not be too hard to prove. I would assume you have proof of paying Council Tax for another property, thus proving you weren't living in this one. Do you or your family still have the tenancy agreement from when the house was let? This too would prove you were not liable.

I'd be inclined to get in touch with the council, find out how many Liability Orders are outstanding and the value of each, them. I would then e-mail and send a hard copy of what you have written here explaining that the debt is not yours and asking for the bailiffs to be called off and the debt returned to the council. If you know who was liable for the Council Tax, you should, of course, tell them that also.

[WendyB]

Re: B&S bailiff has given notice of seizure on my partners car.

Have you read the Bailiff Guide as linked earlier? They cannot seize any goods; if they have never gained peaceful entry then they cannot force entry. Also if they have never been inside your property then any levies/walking possessions will be invalid.

[Dirac]

Re: B&S bailiff has given notice of seizure on my partners car.

Have you read the Bailiff Guide as linked earlier? They cannot seize any goods; if they have never gained peaceful entry then they cannot force entry. Also if they have never been inside your property then any levies/walking possessions will be invalid.

The guide was not clear on whether this was the case for goods/possessions accessible to the public, i.e. on my drive, only for those behind locked doors or gates. If they cannot make any claim for anything unless they have gained peaceful entry to the building, even if it is on the drive or road, then I am quite satisfied that this can be dealt with through the council. B&S can be cut out of the situation entirely.

Just to confirm, does access to the garden count as peaceful entry, as our garden gate is not lockable, the landlord does not allow it?

So glad I found this site, you've all been so helpful and patient, Thanks!

[labman]

Re: B&S bailiff has given notice of seizure on my partners car.

Access is access to your house, internally. One foot will do - it counts as access. They can gain peaceful access to your house by opening and entering through an unlocked door, climbing through an open window. They cannot force entry.

They can levy on things which are outside though, and have even been known to levy on doormats and dogs!

[Dirac]

Re: B&S bailiff has given notice of seizure on my partners car.

It would seem to me if you are not liable for this debt it should not be too hard to prove. I would assume you have proof of paying Council Tax for another property, thus proving you weren't living in this one. Do you or your family still have the tenancy agreement from when the house was let? This too would prove you were not liable.

I'd be inclined to get in touch with the council, find out how many Liability Orders are outstanding and the value of each, them. I would then e-mail and send a hard copy of what you have written here explaining that the debt is not yours and asking for the bailiffs to be called off and the debt returned to the council. If you know who was liable for the Council Tax, you should, of course, tell them that also.

Whilst I have virtually none of the proofs you list, I have just spoken to my mother, who owned the house, and it turns out that one of the council tax bills in question is for a period after the house was split into two flat and sold to people who then lived in them. We had assumed that, as the council granted the planning permission to convert, they would automatically inform their council tax department that it had become two dwellings! She also has rent books for two of the three people who did live there before the sale. So, despite me being on the electoral register at that address (Odd as I understood you had to sign to go on the register, and I certainly didn't do that!), we have some evidence to suggest I did not live there.

Is it possible to get a copy of the original request to be put on the electoral register? I suspect the signature will not be mine. If that is the case, does anyone have any suggestions on how to proceed?
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Access is access to your house, internally. One foot will do - it counts as access. They can gain peaceful access to your house by opening and entering through an unlocked door, climbing through an open window. They cannot force entry.

They can levy on things which are outside though, and have even been known to levy on doormats and dogs!

Thanks, that clarifies things. So they can levy on whatever they like outside the house, but it means absolutely nothing if they've never gained peaceful access. Therefore the levy is void?

We have never even seen a bailiff from B&S, the note stuffed through the door when we got home is the first contact we have had. They have never gained any form of access, peaceful or not!

[labman]

Re: B&S bailiff has given notice of seizure on my partners car.

They can legally levy on a car parked outside your house, but as it is not yours, you should have no difficulty proving that this is an invalid levy.

[Dirac]

Re: B&S bailiff has given notice of seizure on my partners car.

They can legally levy on a car parked outside your house, but as it is not yours, you should have no difficulty proving that this is an invalid levy.

So a simple letter to B&S with copies of the bill of sale and finance agreement in my partners name, and a brief outline of the invalidity of all of their charges should be the only contact I need to have with them?

[Swingletree]

Re: B&S bailiff has given notice of seizure on my partners car.

Please don't speak or contact the bailiffs. I know that may sound a bit of a nonsensical thing to do but if you have looked at various posts on this site you will quickly bcome aware that Bailiffs work to their own workings. They will still go on and on to 'get money' out of you even when you feel that you present them with the 'truth' . Unfortunately, that's the way they work.

Go back to the Council with all your paperwork. As the 'debt' belongs to the Council they are the only ones that can stop the bailiffs in their tracks whilst all this is sorted out.

[Dirac]

Re: B&S bailiff has given notice of seizure on my partners car.

Right, I've spoken to the council in question, Wiltshire Council. The person I dealt with was very helpful and seemed to really want to get this sorted out, which was nice and not what I was expecting!

She has given me a list of my communications with the council at the time, and has clarified the situation. The dates relate to an earlier period when I was registered as liable for the council tax at the property (I was wrong in my first post. That whole period of my life is a bit of a blur). I was never there, but it was classed as my home address, and nobody else was ever listed as liable. There are 2 liability orders covering a period of 1 year, bridging 2 financial years, hence 2 accounts. The dates and amounts on B&S website are incorrect.

The council have accepted my request to consider a payment plan, and were even willing to consider a very low figure in line with the rate of an attachment of earnings if I were on benefits. What they won't do, regardless of any evidence I might provide, is chase anyone else for the council tax. They contend that it has been 5 years, I have had plenty of time to tell them of any other people living in the house. Their suggestion was either to chase the other people for contributions through small claims court, or, as I was the only one listed as liable, request they recalculate the amount with a 25% single occupancy discount. I was surprised this was suggested as I had just told them that I was not the sole resident!

They have put a hold on the recovery action until 16th December, to give me a chance to explore my options and make an offer of repayment.

I have made no contact whatsoever with B&S, other than to read their website to examine the details they hold about my case, and do not expect to hear from them.